#011: Joshua Fiveson - Military Lawyer and Former State Supreme Court and Federal Appellate Law Clerk

This transcript was generated by AI.

Joshua Fiveson [00:00:00]:

You are a military officer and you're an attorney. And those two responsibilities, those two hats are just they're different by their very nature. It's not to say that they're inconsistent with one another, but the skills required to be a good officer are not the same skills required to be a good attorney.

Jonah Perlin [00:00:22]:

Welcome to How I Lawyer, a podcast where I talk to attorneys from throughout the profession about what they do, why they do it, and how they do it. Well, I'm your host, Jonah Perlin, a law professor in Washington, DC. Now let's get started. Hello, and welcome back to episode eleven. In today's episode, I interview Lieutenant Joshua Fiveson, who serves in the Navy Judge Advocates General Corps as senior appellate counsel. In addition to his military service, josh served as a law clerk to Chief Justice Nathan Hecht of the Texas State Supreme Court and Judge Kevin Olsen on the US. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces. Josh will soon return to Texas to clerk for Judge Don Willett on the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Josh is a graduate of George Mason University. Go, Patriots, and Harvard Law School. Go, Crimson. Despite being a relatively recent graduate, josh has already had an impressive career. Just this year, he's argued three times before the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, the highest court in the military, and was the 2020 recipient of the Navy's Outstanding Young Military Lawyer Award. In our conversation, we discussed what makes the career of a military lawyer unique, the keys to applying for clerkships and how to succeed once you get there, and the challenges of working hard while also remembering to treasure each day, not only as legal professionals, but as people, too. After a brief disclaimer, we began our conversation by discussing what inspired Josh to become a military lawyer. Here he is.

Joshua Fiveson [00:01:51]:

Before I begin, I've got to do the most lawyerly thing possible, which is offer a quick disclaimer. Obviously, I'm thrilled to be here, but in my personal capacity, so nothing I say should be attributed as the official position of the United States, the Department of the Navy, or really anyone important. Everything I say today is just me.

Jonah Perlin [00:02:10]:

So can you start by talking a little bit about why you decided to become a military lawyer?

Joshua Fiveson [00:02:15]:

So, huge Tom Cruise fan. And when I found out that I had to take math in order to model my life on Top Gun, I decided I'd go with a few Good Men. Jokes aside, I have always wanted to serve, and I realized service takes countless forms. You don't have to wear a uniform to serve. But personally, I'd always wanted to spend some time in the military. And I also, perhaps counterintuitively, had a predilection for questioning authority, which is maybe not the best mix in retrospect, but things have worked out all right. I'm incredibly blessed, but the questioning authority aspect is what got me interested in the law specifically, I have always tried to put myself in new and perhaps adventurous situations, and when deciding where I would like to be a lawyer and where I could exercise that desire to serve. There are a few other places where you get to practice floating around on an aircraft carrier in the South China Sea. There are a few other practice areas where I get to file briefs one year and the year prior, I'm liaising with foreign militaries that we're providing support for while coordinating with the State Department. It's just a place where the breadth of practice is refreshing exciting, and that all really spoke to me, while, again, at the same time getting to fulfill my genuine desire to serve the nation.

Jonah Perlin [00:03:40]:

And can you tell me a little bit about the roles you've played?

Joshua Fiveson [00:03:44]:

It feels like a lifetime, but I've only been on active duty for about four years now. I've provided counsel to commanding officers of warships while I was in San Diego. I have done general legal assistance, helping service members retirees dependents for countless things, whether their wills or assisting with housing issues. I've also served as a criminal defense counsel for service members courts martial, where what was on the table, my clients were facing up to life. I mean, these were not light charges. And I also currently serve as one of three senior appellate counsel for the Navy and Marine Corps. We're a joint command, one team, one fight, and we handle all of the appellate work for the United States Navy and the Marine Corps. Everything is our shop. And we also advise on complex criminal courts martial worldwide for Navy and Marine Corps. So we're working in all the time zones on complicated issues that come up that obviously the United States may have an appellate interest in. So that's what I've done over the course of the last four years, and it's been exciting.

Jonah Perlin [00:04:49]:

That sounds like a whole lifetime's career of being a lawyer in four years. And do you rotate between these things, or are you assigned on a project by project basis?

Joshua Fiveson [00:04:58]:

So it's a little bit of both. At least in the Jag Corps, you're expected to kind of sample, you're expected to rotate through kind of core competencies. That is your command services, which is what I was referencing, where you're Piesing local commands, your legal assistance, where it's general again, landlord, tenant matters, divorce, wills, things of that nature, then a trial billet. So either as a trial counsel prosecuting cases or as a defense counsel on the defense side. And I thankfully ended up on the defense side. Though I will say, in law school, I never thought I wanted to be a defense counsel. In fact, far from it. And if I could throw something out for your students, for your listeners, please. Being a defense counsel is one of the most life changing experiences that I've had.

Jonah Perlin [00:05:43]:

Why do you say that?

Joshua Fiveson [00:05:44]:

Well, so not just as an attorney, but as a person, frankly, to a certain degree, this has an element of humanity that's often missing. And being a defense counsel, you see, obviously the other side of things. You are interacting with a human being whose life is changing, and there's really something incredible about being on that side, and it really changes the way that you approach the practice of law. And frankly, it's made me a better government attorney. Right. Right now, I represent the United States. I'm on the other side of the aisle, and the way I practice is informed differently. I have a better kind of depth of appreciation. When I read a cold record, I understand far better what's happening.

Jonah Perlin [00:06:33]:

It reminds me a little bit of what the Court of Appeals judge that I clerked for always said. So he only hired people with district court experience. And part of that decision was, I want to make sure that I have people who, when they read a trial court record, have been the ones deciding and helping decide trial court records.

Joshua Fiveson [00:06:52]:

Right.

Jonah Perlin [00:06:52]:

The ability to see what the other side is saying is basically a superpower for the law. No matter how you can do that, if you can find a way to get some experience on the other side or in the other piece of the practice, it's just huge.

Joshua Fiveson [00:07:07]:

Right. And it's an unfortunate syndrome. I think sometimes we can become so tribalistic about our practice area that folks are I was counseled. Hey, be careful what you do as far as your internships, as far as your actual jobs, because once you get the stink of a defense counselor, the stink of a prosecutor, the other side is not going to want you. And thankfully, in the military, obviously, that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Jonah Perlin [00:07:31]:

Sure. And that's obviously one difference between practicing law in the military and practicing in private practice. Are there other big differences that you found? I mean, obviously you went straight into the Jag Corps, straight after your clerkships, but are there other differences between those two practices?

Joshua Fiveson [00:07:48]:

Yeah. So take everything I say with a grain of salt, because obviously I've spent limited time on the civilian side. I can only base it on what I've heard from friends and colleagues. But the responsibilities shouldered. I think there's a drastic difference, and that can be both a pro and a con. I mean, just this last year, and I realize that I'm incredibly blessed to be able to say this, I argued three times in the highest court in the military. I don't think in fact, I'm confident that I would not have had this breadth of exposure had I not gone the route that I have. And I realize it's not the Supreme Court, but that's like arguing three times at the Supreme Court in a single year.

Jonah Perlin [00:08:32]:

And in terms of the kinds of cases you argue, you've talked a little bit about the kinds of work you do. But in terms of the kinds of cases you argue, are they similar in some ways to a typical sort of federal Court of appeal type argument, or are there distinct differences because you're arguing in front of a military court?

Joshua Fiveson [00:08:53]:

There are differences in the vernacular, in any given case, we're going to be using terms that you're just not going to hear in the civilian world. But most of the issues, the vast majority of the issues are the same. Most appellate work, frankly, is the same. It's just you're having different conversations about different areas of the law. Right, right. But I mean, so much of my practice is heavy on the constitutional side, a lot of statutory interpretation. What does the Constitution say? What does the statute say? What does the precedent say? So this is very much an appellate discussion, but we're just using language and confronting fact patterns that certainly may not bear out in the civilian world.

Jonah Perlin [00:09:34]:

And are there also unique challenges to practicing law as a military officer?

Joshua Fiveson [00:09:39]:

Yeah. So first goes to exactly what you just said. You are a military officer and you're an attorney. And those two responsibilities, those two hats are just they're different by their very nature. It's not to say that they're inconsistent with one another, but the skills required to be a good officer are not the same skills required to be a good attorney. And in order to succeed in the military, you got to be both. And there's varying degrees of emphasis across the branches just because every branch is different. Every branch has its own culture. For example, in the Marine Corps, I mean, you are very much a Marine officer first. You are a rifleman first. My point is that there are different expectations than you might confront as an attorney just in the civilian world.

Jonah Perlin [00:10:37]:

What's the process for doing what you've been doing the last few years?

Joshua Fiveson [00:10:41]:

Yeah, so it varies by branch, but generally the process is as follows. You put together your application package, you write your standard kind of personal statement, you get your letters of recommendation, and you submit. And then there's also an interview aspect to it. We call it the structured interview in the Navy. And you sit down with two officers, one more senior than the other, and you'll go through a series of questions. And these are questions that are intelligently designed. And I obviously can't reveal what the questions are, but the point is to understand who you are, what type of person you are, what type of leader you can become, and again, is what I was touching on about the role of an officer. What is your capacity to lead, what is your capacity to navigate difficult situations. And certainly these skills can be useful to somebody who's just going to be an attorney generally. But they're not just valued. They are mandated in order to be a successful officer. So that's part of the selection process that bears heavily on kind of who gets then, quote, professionally recommended. So you get picked up after the interview and the package submission, and then you go through all of the commissioning process, which is medical screenings and all of that. Once you officially kind of are in, you sign on the dotted line. Then after law school, you go to your respective officer school, which is a period of instruction where you learn how to be in the military, how to be an officer. And once you've completed that, then go in the Navy to the Naval Justice School, which is basically the Navy's mini version of law school. So you go again for more schooling. It's a little weird, the feeling after having graduated, you're a lawyer and then you're doing push ups and folks are yelling at you, you're swabbing the deck and you're cleaning things. It's different. It is not a traditional path, but I think it brings with it an incredible and a fleeting sense of humility from our profession generally, that it's not about your credentials and it's not about the fancy things that you get to hang on the wall. Everybody's the same and you're a part of a team that at the end of the day there's going to be a job and you got to get that job done. And I think that sense of humility has helped me in my appellate practice because one of the most wonderful things, and I'm going to nerd out for a little bit, I think, about please practice, is that it's not about rhetoric, it's about reasoning, right? That's the beauty of the judicial branch. Its lifeblood is its reasoning. Right? The judges publish an opinion and then it lives or dies on how well reasoned it is. And the humility aspect that comes in is realizing that you're not going to come up with the brilliant, magnificent answer. It's not going to be, what does this lawyer think? They've just absolutely moved all of us. This has got to be the right answer. But it's really sitting with the law and figuring out what is the correct answer, right? What does the law compel? It's not about who's smarter than the other person. It's about what the right answer is, what the law necessitates. And if I could bring it full circle those times where I was mopping after law school, those times where I was doing things that I never thought I would do as a barred attorney, but just trying to get to the end and get the mission done have helped me in approaching the law with a sense of humility. That it's not about me. It's not about the fancy credentials. Right? It's about doing the work that's necessary.

Jonah Perlin [00:14:32]:

That's great. And I guess besides being able to mop the deck, are there certain sort of skills or personality types that you think really fit well in the kind of work you do at the forefront.

Joshua Fiveson [00:14:47]:

The number one most important thing is you've got to be a team player. Just full stop. If you don't have the capacity to be on a team, you are going to have a very hard time having a successful career in the military. We are all about teamwork, right? It's about the men and women to your left and right. It's about your shipmates, it's about your sailors. It's about making sure the team succeeds. So often in the legal profession, we can be a little bit cannibalistic. Whoever's on the top, whoever's got the top of the class, what's your GPA, what's your class rank, what's your LSAT? None of that matters in the military. And again, it's wonderfully humbling because again, nobody cares where you went to school. It's about what kind of person are you? Are you the kind of person who I'm going to stand beside, I'm going to trust, I'm going to want to be on a team with, I know is going to have my back at the end of the day and has the integrity to make the right call when nobody else is looking. That's what really matters.

Jonah Perlin [00:15:57]:

Are there classes you can take in law school? Are there things you should do that will give you a leg up in the world that you practice?

Joshua Fiveson [00:16:08]:

Yes, but maybe not for the reasons that you would think. Right? It's not about a class on military law. It's not about taking a class that you get to watch A Few Good Men and talk about whether or not you need him on that wall. But it's about getting training in how to be a lawyer. So much of law school is kind of, let's say, a bit esoteric, right? I mean, some classes we could just throw all the textbooks in the middle of the floor, burn them, let's do it allegory of the cave style and talk about the shadows. Right? I mean, I would not be surprised if that were an actual class, but you have to make a conscious choice to try and take classes that are going to help you prepare. Right. There are places where you can graduate law school. Have you never taken constitutional law? I think that is just a disservice to students, right? Taking federal court, taking classes that prepare you to think and act as an attorney. Right. Because so much of it is just an intellectual process. You're not going to come out knowing all of the answers. And I always say this to my colleagues and subordinates alike. If anyone just gives you an answer off the cuff, you should probably question the answer, right. So much of what we do is about figuring out the right answer. And sure, after a certain amount of time, you can be sufficiently informed that you've got a really good idea of exactly the right answer off the top of your head. But again, it's about going back. It's about checking the references, check the statute, read the constitution again, read the cases right. And get to the right answer.

Jonah Perlin [00:17:49]:

I mean, that's what I do with my students all the time. Half of the battle is teaching them what is the question that we should even be asking? Right? Once you get what the question is, then the question is, well, what are the relevant sources that help me answer that question? And if you can't do those two foundational things, you have no place opining at all.

Joshua Fiveson [00:18:11]:

And that's what I meant before about the humility aspect. Right. A lot of times I think, and frankly, I was probably under this misconception myself, it's about who can think of the best answer, right, who's the most compelling person in the room. But it's not. It's about the process. It's about getting to the right answer. And I will tell new council and old council alike in my office, what's your authority? That sounds fantastic, but give me a case because we're not going to move the intermediate appellate court. We're not going to move the Caf, our highest court. We're not going to move them by the sheer force of will. We're going to move them by saying, look, this has been answered. Here is what the precedent says, or look, here's what the plain text of the statute, the plain reading of whatever governing regulation, constitutional provision, whatever it is, right? We're going to move them by giving them what they need, by engaging in the necessary analytical approach. We're not going to win because we just say something that sounds great.

Jonah Perlin [00:19:20]:

It's funny, one of the things that I often tell my students when they take a position but they don't cite to any authority is I look at them and I say, you and what army? And how I feel like when I interview you that has a new valence that will really work. But I think it's really important. So I want to turn to talking a little bit about clerkships, if that's okay. So you've had two clerkships already and a third one coming on the way. So can you just tell me a little bit about what excited you to go clerk and then maybe we can talk a little bit about the different experiences you've had?

Joshua Fiveson [00:19:51]:

Yeah, so clerking, in my humble perspective, is just one of the best jobs in our field. I started my career with Chief Justice Heck down at the Texas Supreme Court. I was then with Judge Olsen Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces to people who have had immeasurable impact on the way I approach the law, the way I think about the law, just how to disagree without being disagreeable, and how to really put in the work necessary. They've just inspired me in ways that I simply can't capture. So beyond that and that's a lot.

Jonah Perlin [00:20:26]:

Yeah, right.

Joshua Fiveson [00:20:27]:

You get to see how the sausage is made, which is just incredibly valuable from an advocate standpoint. It's one thing to write a brief and say, I think this is quite compelling, I'm sure this will move the court to the correct solution. And it's another thing to understand how judges take the case after argument and then conference it with their colleagues and some of the internal debates that occur between chambers. Right. These are all touch points that it's an incredible honor to be exposed to and that, again, deepen the way you approach practice.

Jonah Perlin [00:21:02]:

And in terms of writing, what did you learn from your clerkship?

Joshua Fiveson [00:21:07]:

It is all about precision. Every judge I've ever worked for, if there is a word on the page, there's thought behind that, and I take that and try to apply it to my practice as an advocate. If I say something, if there's a comma, there's a reason, nothing is done just off the cuff. And that sense of precision, that sense of just deliberate approach to the law, I think is incredibly beneficial for an advocate. And sure, you can develop that anywhere, a fantastic law firm or elsewhere. But the point is you really get thrown into the fire by learning it on the side of the judiciary with the judge. Because, again yes. Does an opinion impact just this case? Certainly it's the disposition for that case, but an opinion carries with it far broader consequence than an advocate might expect in the context of their brief. Right. You are representing your client in your case, you're making arguments on behalf of your client in your case. But when a judge writes, they know that their opinion is going to be cited in all other cases and that carries with it a need for precision that advocates, I don't think, immediately shoulder and it's just incredibly beneficial.

Jonah Perlin [00:22:36]:

Yeah. I think people forget that judges make law. That's part of our common law system. You can be a strict purposeivist or a strict originalist. Judges make law when they apply established law and established sources of law to new sets of facts, and that law is then going to be cited back to them in the future. And that is a huge challenge to hold on your shoulders as a brand new lawyer coming into clerk yeah.

Joshua Fiveson [00:23:02]:

And the way I would put it is that every case is bigger than just that case. Right. That case requires an honest engagement with law. What is the right answer? And that's not to say that cases must be answered with an eye to future cases and figuring out what the right answer in those cases not yet presented. No. But the reality is they have broad consequence, right. When weighing as a judge or a panel weighs on the rights of the parties before them, it's going to have broad implication. And that weight, the weight of that responsibility, I think, hits home in a different way than the weight of responsibility of representing one's client. The two are certainly incredibly important, but again, it encourages a sense of deliberate precision that I think is just invaluable.

Jonah Perlin [00:23:55]:

So you started clerking on the Texas Supreme Court, as you said, for the Chief Justice. Can you tell me a little bit more about what it was like to clerk on state's highest court and specifically on the Texas Supreme Court?

Joshua Fiveson [00:24:07]:

Oh gosh, it was incredible. Just absolutely I could not have been given the opportunity to start my career in a better way. My judge is just the model of hard work. The Chief, he would read just absolutely everything that came through the court. I mean, he put in the hours. There is nobody that works harder than that man. And so much of that inspired me and my work ethic that I've tried to kind of bring the level that I saw him bring to everything. So that was incredible. From a mentorship standpoint, the Court itself, incredible court. I mean, one of the aspects that I didn't expect of clerking was interacting with the other Justices. I mean, there were times where I would get the opportunity to just sit down and have a conversation with the other Justices and get to know them a little bit more than my wise be possible, even though they weren't my boss. Certainly your boss serves as a mentor of sorts, but also the other members of the Court. Right.

Jonah Perlin [00:25:10]:

And I think on the Texas Supreme Court you also get the opportunity to go to conference, is that true?

Joshua Fiveson [00:25:15]:

That's right. In fact, my first day, if I could tell a story at the Supreme Court of Texas was in conference and I had just graduated from law school. I had just taken the bar and didn't have my results back. I was terrified, as I think every law student is, and first day was in conference. And obviously I won't say what happened in conference, but I'm sitting there with zero clue of really what's happening around me. I understand it's incredibly important. I understand I am going to need to figure it out, but just with very little understanding of kind of what is happening around me being thrown into the sea and you're afloat and you're trying to figure out where the heck you are and stay above the surface. But yes, Supreme Court of Texas, we participate in conference and it's an amazing opportunity that as you mentioned, virtually no one does that. It was wonderful because we not only kind of engage with our justice in chambers, but during conference with the others. It's one thing to be able to advocate to court respective justice, it's quite another to advocate to the entire Court in a private mean. It's just, it's wild. It's wonderful. And it's an incredible honor and responsibility to kind of serve the people of Texas in. That was just, it was fantastic.

Jonah Perlin [00:26:39]:

Yeah, I think that's such an incredible opportunity for a young lawyer, being a law clerk is kind of like being a judge's brain or adjacent to a judge's brain for a year, but to also be able to be part of the Capital B brain of the whole court. And what persuades different judges is such a unique opportunity. I mean, the closest I ever got was on the Second Circuit. They took a very different approach, which is they did not talk about cases at all, not by phone. The only time they talked about cases was in one of two ways. They talked about it right after oral argument, or they talked about it in writing by facts.

Joshua Fiveson [00:27:20]:

Okay.

Jonah Perlin [00:27:20]:

And so I spent a lot of my year on the Second Circuit writing and responding to written correspondence by facts. A totally different medium, a totally different genre. And I think being able to see it live would have been really special.

Joshua Fiveson [00:27:35]:

Yeah. As I'm sure you found with that experience. Right. It gives you insight, this sense of kind of what the dynamic between chambers actually is, how the judges come to decide the case. That just changes the way you practice law. So as a young attorney, to have your formative years be in that environment, I think it's an incredible honor, it's an incredible blessing, and it's just a wonderful opportunity that is unmatched.

Jonah Perlin [00:28:04]:

Sure. And turning to that, right. The challenge, of course, to clerking is getting a clerkship. So you've now secured three different clerkships. Can you talk a little bit about not the nuts and bolts of applying, but some of the tips and tricks you've found to be successful in that process?

Joshua Fiveson [00:28:21]:

Sure. So one of the most important aspects, I believe, about getting a clerkship and just being a good clerk is researching and writing. And I know that sounds like a platitude, right? That's what everybody knows. But really spending time trying to develop your writing, putting the work in, there are so many people in fact, I did it myself initially, where the writing sample is almost like an afterthought. I mean, that's such an incredible aspect of your application because it's arguably the only demonstration of your writing ability that you're going to put before the judge. So taking the time during law school and I frankly didn't do enough of this to flex those muscles, to build that muscle memory, to build that repository of samples that you can choose from when putting together your applications. Because when you realize you need it, it is too late. Right. If you don't think you have a good writing sample at the time you're putting together your applications, you've missed the boat for that cycle.

Jonah Perlin [00:29:25]:

The challenge is there are more people that want to clerk than can. That's just the reality chambers can get. I mean, federal chambers can get over 1000 applications every cycle. Do you have any thoughts on, A, how to get your application read and B, just how to find a clerkship in that world?

Joshua Fiveson [00:29:43]:

So I have a couple of thoughts. First be okay with rejection. A lot of people in our world are so used to being successful that any semblance of rejection is a harder blow than it needs to be. Somebody like me, who spent most of their life just getting rejected left and right, it's second nature for me. I always say it's easy to stand tall when you do so on a whole big old pile of rejections. Right. But that, I think, psychologically is really important for somebody engaging the process. Right. Just be ready to be told no and it stinks. It's emotionally taxing. It's physically taxing to just do the darn interviews. When I was doing them, we weren't in the age of COVID so I was flying around on my own dime, which I didn't have many dimes, let me just say.

Jonah Perlin [00:30:44]:

Absolutely.

Joshua Fiveson [00:30:45]:

And doing these interviews, and it was tiring. So I think be willing to put in the work and if it doesn't work out, be okay with that and be ready to forge ahead. I think that's one aspect. Second thing is being yourself. And I realize this might also sound like perhaps useless generalized advice, but I personally spent a lot of my initial time trying to be who I thought somebody else wanted me to be. The employer, the judge, whatever it was, when I was going through the application process. And I wasn't initially very successful. Only when I realized, look, I can only be myself. And sure, that's palatable by some, but at the end of the day, I am who I am. And this is how I genuinely kind of approach the law. This is the lens through which I approach life that is compelling. Right. And the judges are awash with qualified applicants. As you mentioned, there's a lot. So at the end of the day, so much of the process is designed to find somebody who they think would suit their chambers, who they're willing to kind of put in those long hours beside. Because if you can't be a part of that tight knit team, even if you're just the most brilliant person in the world, which has never been a burden that I've had to carry. Right. If you are difficult to work with, you're not going to help.

Jonah Perlin [00:32:21]:

And if you are able to land that clerkship, any advice on how to be successful?

Joshua Fiveson [00:32:25]:

You're there because to do a job, you're not there because anyone thinks that you're the judge or even close to being the judge. You're there to help your judge do a job and you're there to make their life better. Frankly, I think something that young lawyers often try to do know, and I did it myself is we do things that we think will reflect well on us. But if anything, especially that I've learned in the Navy, it ain't about you, right? Full stop. It's not about you. It's about the mission. And if no one ever knows your name but you did the mission. That's a good day. That's probably the best day, because you did your job and you did it well. So at the end of the day, I think something that's that's critical, that's often lost. And when I hear you'll be talking to clerks from various clerks and like, oh, yeah, that one's my opinion, right. That's a dangerous sentiment. And certainly some judges give their clerks leeway to say what opinions that they were involved with in drafting and such, but nothing is yours, right? You don't wear the robe. You are there to do a job. And that job, that mission, is supporting your judge. And their mission is getting the right answer. And as long as you approach it, I think with that sense of humility, again, if no one ever knows your name, it does not matter as long as you got the right answer. I think that not only benefits you as a clerk, you as an attorney, but your judge. Because, again, it frankly not about them either. It's about making sure we protect the integrity of our practice and the rule of law. And if you always come to an answer I believe that you are thrilled about, right, you might be doing something wrong.

Jonah Perlin [00:34:17]:

So before you leave, Josh, I want to ask you a little bit about how you balance your profession and your personal family life. I know you have two small kids at home, just like me, and I'm curious, as we're all figuring this out, if you have any lessons from your experiences.

Joshua Fiveson [00:34:35]:

Yeah, so that's a great question. And I would say the truth is what's my secret to the balance is that I haven't figured out the secret to the balance. I'll tell you a little story, and maybe my story will help folks, if anything, not give them an answer, but help them avoid maybe some of the mistakes I've made. I would say that much of my journey has been maybe ironically, a little bit ironically been spent trying to make up for something in the past. I was just talking to my wife the other night about this in anticipation of this talk, and it hit me that I've been honestly going nonstop, literally, with no vacations. Heck, I didn't even take a honeymoon, much to the woe of my wife for the last decade. I started law school in 2011, and having not matriculated what was my first choice, I told myself and my then fiance that I would work around the clock to, quote, make up for what hadn't played out the way I wanted. I put in the hours, I put in a lot of work, and by the grace of God or an administrative error, which it's probably both, I transferred to Harvard, and meanwhile, my mom became pretty ill, and I had her move in with me and my then fiance so that I could take care of her. And this made it a little bit tough to focus on school, and frankly, my academics suffered. And at one point, Harvard actually encouraged me. They called me in, sat me down, and encouraged me to take a leave of absence. And I a little bit too confidently declined. And I told myself, hey, I'm going to lose out on everything that I've been planning on with the Navy beyond everything that I've been working for. So I kept pushing in order to make up for what I thought was a less than ideal start to my legal career and to make use of the opportunities that had been put in front of me, all the while really ignoring a lot of the damage that it was doing to myself and to my family.

Jonah Perlin [00:36:35]:

Sure.

Joshua Fiveson [00:36:36]:

And once I became an attorney, I then continued to spend countless hours in my free time trying to make up for academic opportunities that I felt I had missed out on. During law school, I dedicated almost every free moment I had to pursuing a fellowship or pursuing some sort of academic opportunity that would put me in a position where I felt like I actually deserved to say I graduated from Harvard, because I didn't. I didn't feel like I had earned it. And it's not lost on me that there's some perverse irony in constantly setting your sights on making up for something in the past. Because I'm now reflecting on the past decade trying to make up for the time that I've taken from my family over the course of that decade in an attempt to make sure that it wasn't for nothing. And this has pushed me, again, perversely, to work harder to make sure that at some point, hopefully soon, I could tell them, I can look at my wife, I can look at my daughters and say, we did it. But the thing is, and this sounds like a platitude, but it's not. Every day on this earth is a gift. And I think just as a human, I don't spend enough time realizing that. While I was stationed in San Diego, I actually lost my closest shipmate on station. We went to training together, we were stationed together, first duty station. And he too had gone through a season, a long season, with the mentality that I just need to do this one next thing and then I can focus on the other important stuff. And the next thing you know, I was carrying his ashes on a plane to Arlington, and that was a wake up call for me. So why am I telling you, and presumably the whole world, the Internet in memoriam forever. This story. Is it important to work hard? Absolutely. Heck, any success that I've enjoyed has been the product of the fact that I may not be the smartest person in the world, but I will outwork anyone if given the opportunity. If given the chance. But what I failed to account for and what I would implore anybody still listening to consider is that it's important to consciously force yourself or try to draw boundaries when you can between work and life, because the work will always be there, the life might not. And there's a risk that eventually what you practice either becomes unsustainable or unforgettable and not in the good way. And there's always going to be one reason or another to make up for something in the past. I've spent the last decade of my life doing that right. I know it way too well. So if you're always looking back, you may eventually forget where you're trying to go in the first place, I think is my point.

Jonah Perlin [00:39:28]:

Again. That was Lieutenant Joshua Fiveson, senior appellate counsel at the Navy Jag Corps. I want to thank Josh for being on the podcast and for sharing his candid advice and insights on the life of a military lawyer, state and federal court clerkships, and how to maintain balance while also working hard as an attorney. I learned a lot from his story, and I hope you did as well. As always. If you enjoyed or learned something from this episode and haven't yet subscribed, please do at howilawyer.com or wherever you get your podcasts if you can. It would mean a lot to me. If you can leave a review on the Apple itunes store are even if you're not listening, through the Apple podcasts app. Thanks once again to Josh. Thanks for listening and have a great week.