#020: Collin Seguin - Insurance Lawyer

This transcript was generated by AI.

Collin Seguin [00:00:00]:

you can be really good at what you do without what you do being everything you are. And that's what I've learned with from the people I've worked with and from friends is that they're really talented successful people who it's not their entire identity. And if you think about that helps to really conceptualize why balance, you know, as much as you can get is important and just how a healthy way of looking at things.

Jonah Perlin [00:00:27]:

Welcome to How I lawyer, a podcast where I talk to attorneys from throughout the profession about what they do, why they do it, and how they do it well. I'm your host, Jonah Perlin, a law professor in Washington, DC. Now let's get started.

Jonah Perlin [00:00:41]:

Hello, and welcome back in today's episode, I speak with Colin Seguin, who's currently an assistant vice president and regional director for the subrogation major case unit at Travelers Insurance in Hartford, Connecticut. in a world where everyone seems to constantly change organizations and businesses. Colin is the rare individual who spent almost 15 years at the same company starting as a customer services professional, then paralegal while he completed law school at night, trying cases before juries, and recently has played leadership roles across the business including his current role where he leads a team that handles many of the most complex subrogation cases in the company. In 2019, Colin was named the to the Hartford Business Journals, 40 under 40 for his professional accomplishments as well as his work in the community, including serving as an alumni mentor to 1st year law students at his alma mater. Perlin, a graduate of University of Connecticut School of Law, Go Huskies, and Boston University, Go Terriers. It's so great to have you on the podcast, Colin. Thank you, Jonah. Great to be here. So I wanna start by asking you a little bit about your legal area of expertise, which as far as I can tell from your resume is insurance law. and more specifically what you're doing now, which is subrogation. So can you talk a little bit about what that is and what that means for you every day? Absolutely. So insurance one of the nice things about insurance law is that it really touches on everything, and that's one of the reasons that I enjoy my job and really why I continue to pursue my career at Travelers.

Collin Seguin [00:02:01]:

Right now, I'm an assistant vice president and regional director in our Subberg major case unit. And for folks who might not know what subrogation is, what it is, as an insurance company, we make payments on losses. Somebody owns a house. There's a fire. We'll make a payment on that for the building or for additional living expenses, things of that nature. it may be that somebody caused the loss. So it may be that there was a plumber doing work with Welding torch, and that's what caused the loss. So as the insurance carrier, we step into the shoes of our insured and have a right of subrogation against the party that caused the loss. So that's what we do. So my group handles the most severe subrogation efforts in the company, matters in the hundreds of thousands into the 1,000,000 of dollars. mainly property. That's what really my team's focus is. But our organization handles property, workers' compensation, subrogation, auto subrogation. And then we assist other lines of business as well for subrogation related questions and issues.

Jonah Perlin [00:03:08]:

Got it. And are you doing sort of the fact development piece? Does someone send you a file and your team has to decide, is this something we wanna go after? Or are you sort of the lawyers that step in when someone has already said, I think maybe someone else should be on the hook. So it's interesting. The majority of our organization

Collin Seguin [00:03:25]:

don't hold law degree. They are folks who've been in the industry for a number of years. A lot of them have 20, 30 plus years of experience in different lines of business. And the way it would work is there's a loss. Either the property handler who's adjusting the file may reach out to us directly or referred into us because there's something related to the loss, and our frontline folks are fantastic. There's something related to the loss that suggests that there may be an a third party or a party besides the insured who caused the loss than someone on my team or someone within our organization will handle the subrogation piece of it. They'll investigate the loss. They'll look to see if there's a third party that's responsible. They may shut down the file because there's not a third party responsible or if there is, they may further pursue it. And that can include hiring a lawyer. It couldn't whether it's staff counsel or outside counsel, It could involve working with our lab and with our internal fire investigators or some of our vendors, but really doing that complicated investigation. And as you said, determining Is there subrogation potential, or is this one where there really is no potential?

Jonah Perlin [00:04:34]:

And how did you get into sort of that niche with in insurance of Subrogation. I know you held a couple of other legal roles at the company, but sort of what led you to that spot where you are now. So it's interesting. If you had asked me as a 1st year lawsuit with what Subrogation was, I couldn't have told you.

Collin Seguin [00:04:50]:

And but what happened is I so I was working in the claim customer service, group, my first year law school, taking calls and really wants to get into the legal area. So I had the opportunity and it's it was literally a coincidence. My manager was in the elevator with someone who is in human resources He was talking to her about that he had this law student who worked in his group, wanted to work in the legal area, and she set me up with some informational interviews. There was no promise of employment, but it was an opportunity for me to talk to some of the legal folks within the company and see if there was a place for me. And to the interviews, the folks were great, but there were no openings. The last interview was with a gentleman Chuck Walker who had just moved up from down south to run the Hartford office for traveler staff council. We had an interview that was set for an hour, and we talked for over 2 hours. and really hit it off. A couple of weeks later, a paralegal position opened. It was a subrogation paralegal position. I didn't know exactly what Subrogation was, but I knew I wanted to move into the law office so I figured I could learn it. And I was working as a Subrogate impair legal, going to inspections, doing work supporting our subrogation lawyers. And through that, I learned that I enjoyed it. So there was product liability. There were fire losses. I was at fire scenes with my boots and getting in there. And I just talking to the engineers and It was something I really enjoyed. So as I moved on with the my legal career after I graduated law school, I knew the area, so I was able to stop it and handle those files. And then as I progressed within the company, I did other things, but really a lot of the core work that I was doing was Seguin I've always enjoyed it. So it's worked out well for me that I've had the opportunity to do these things. I've had great mentors who knew the area.

Jonah Perlin [00:06:41]:

and then have been able to develop in that way. And are is there a a body of lawyers? I mean, obviously, a body of other folks as well, but are is there a body of lawyers that sort of practices primarily not just insurance law, but in this sort of area of subrogation?

Collin Seguin [00:06:55]:

Absolutely. There are lawyers who are specialized in subrogation because if you think of it, There's the plaintiff lawyer mindset. Right? You're the plaintiff, and you're driving the case forward, but you have these particular skills and product liability or fire losses or losses that involve maybe not engineering skill, but being able to look and know how to investigate it and how to evaluate it. So you do have that specialized area. It's really an Intersection of plaintiff's work, but plaintiff's work for insurance companies.

Jonah Perlin [00:07:26]:

It's backwards from what you often think of, but that's fascinating. You know what I love about your story is that you just put yourself in the right place and you didn't know where the right place was gonna be, but you figured if you put yourself in enough right places, one of them might land and it worked out for you. So I I think that's probably great advice for anyone, and I'm sure you give that advice to your own mentees, I imagine. I do. It's a lot about it's being open to what's out there and understanding

Collin Seguin [00:07:52]:

that a career path goes lots of different places. But when you do make that advancement connecting people and getting knowledge from them. There are a lot of talented people out there doing different things and being exposed to them. That's how you learn what you like and where you wanna go. If you see somebody who's really driven by what they're doing and they're super knowledgeable, then that's going to lead you to want to do what they're doing It's gonna lead you to want to learn more. And, ultimately, that's how you're going to be successful no matter what area you're pursuing.

Jonah Perlin [00:08:27]:

Yeah. And I guess my next question was gonna be, what kinds of people do you think should look in the mirror and say, these are the things I like to do. These are the skills that I perceive I have. This might be a path that I should consider.

Collin Seguin [00:08:42]:

I think it's people who are naturally curious because it's not just the legal aspects of it. It's the technical aspect. So are you someone who is interested in how a sprinkler system operates or use someone who could go to a fire scene and would be interested in talking to the fire investigator about a loss occurred. Because technology is developing quickly, so are the techniques that experts use. So are you interested in that? Not just how things are done now, but how things are moving towards the future? And if you have that natural curiosity, that's going to help out a lot. And then, again, it's really you're a plaintiff. So is it something where you're interested in being the plaintiff in those files, there are people who wanna be defense lawyers, and that's all they want to be. And that's great to know that's what you want to do. But if you do have an interest in that plaintiff work and then you have those other aspects, it's something that I think could be appealing to you.

Jonah Perlin [00:09:45]:

Yeah. And, I mean, you've held so many different roles, albeit maybe in what could be perceived as sort of a narrow substantive area. But, I mean, you've tried cases. You're on the as I understand it, you're a little bit on the business side now. You've led teams. What do you think are some of the sort of tools and techniques that you've built to be able to play all of these roles, albeit sort of in this area of subrogation?

Collin Seguin [00:10:09]:

So it's knowing what you don't know. because if you know that, then you're more likely to want to learn. So in my coverage council role, I'd come in to advise the subrogation organization but I also wanted to learn more about commercial general liability policies and coverage. I'd done defense tort work, but hadn't gotten involved in coverage. So I went to my manager and talked about my desire to do that, and she matched me up with someone a a senior lawyer who is doing construction coverage. and it was something on top of my role. I needed to want to learn that because I was taking on responsibility and I need to be bashed up with somebody who understood that I was at the ground level and really need to learn a lot. It it worked, and I learned coverage, and I eventually took on a role advising a group on liability coverage, but you first have to have that desire to want to learn And hand in hand with that is the desire to want to take on additional responsibility. I've always been someone who the more I can take on and handle directly, I feel like that's how I learn things. Now there's a balance to that, and and I've had mentors luckily who've told me take on what will be valuable and take on what you'll learn from, but don't just take things on for the sake of taking them on. So being strategic but also being willing to put in the work. And that's I've done business plan items. I've done connected with folks in other lines of business, and through that. I feel like I've developed a set of skills that help me in this role, but also help me to be a good business partner to folks throughout the company.

Jonah Perlin [00:11:51]:

And what do you think some of those meta skills that you've developed include and sort of what is the maybe 1 or 2 skills that you wish you had known you wanted to develop a little earlier?

Collin Seguin [00:12:02]:

So as lawyers, we are verbose. Right? We and I I think because we learn a lot sometimes when we learn something, we want to talk about everything that we know. And sometimes that's it that's great for every environment. But a skill that I've developed that I wish I developed earlier was how to take that and put it in a sound bite. You don't need to give the hour version. Sometimes you can give a 5 or 10 minute version. particularly if you're presenting to a senior leader who really doesn't have an hour to listen to the issue. So understanding it enough that you can get it into a short enough time frame that you deliver the message. If there's a recommendation, you deliver the recommendation, and then you've added value that's something that I've learned that I wish I had learned maybe a little bit earlier. The the other is, honestly, it's it goes back to that taking on a lot versus being strategic about taking on things, and it's okay to say no. and that was something I had a lot of trouble with early on because I felt like I added value if I said yes. And part of that is just my background. I don't come from I I think a traditional background for somebody coming into this. So I felt okay. I need to know everything I need to know that not just am I working harder than the next Perlin, but working harder than everybody. And that led to some, you know, 2 or 3 AM where you're doing things. And I I learned that I could get the information and show my value without being a 247 type of Perlin. And you can do that And I think it can be tough to fight that inclination sometimes, but that's something that's been a value for me, and it's something candidly, I wish I had learned a few years earlier.

Jonah Perlin [00:13:49]:

Sure. And it's something look. I hear this a lot from people I interview on the podcast, and I experienced it too. I felt like the way you made yourself and look. I I see it in my everyday life even now. The way you make yourself stand out or be strong is to have the most quantity. And in reality, the few times that I've been allowed to sort of be on the other side, I judge people based on quality, not based on quantity. And you can't say no to everything, and you can't not be a team player. But if you take on too much and you don't do your best work, that's way worse.

Collin Seguin [00:14:23]:

than saying, you know, that's the guy that does everything at sort of a b minus level. Exactly. You get one chance at a first impression. Right? So if you take on too much and then you fail with somebody that leaves an impression. So would you rather limit the number of those things that you're doing but make that great first impression Or would you rather try to do everything and hit 50%. I think if you think it that way, it's a lot easier of a decision. But, again, that was something that I came to a little bit later than I I I would have liked. Sure. And the other thing that I loved that you were talking about was sort of

Jonah Perlin [00:15:04]:

recognizing that you were gaining a set of skills and then always looking for sort of the next adjacent skill, not a skill sort of, you know, something totally different from what you're doing, but something that you don't know about but is related to what you're doing. Do you think that helps get you up to speed a little faster? It does because you're it's all building blocks.

Collin Seguin [00:15:24]:

So for subrogation, for example, you need to know things about product liability, things about fires, engineering, having the skill of evaluating coverage can be helpful. Those aren't disparate skills that are scattered all over the place. Those are things that are all part of the picture. So if you think about expertise as this block set up with all different building blocks, expertise in an area, and you're adding those building blocks and you're developing your expertise, that can be a way of thinking about conceptualizing it. rather than building 6 different blocks, and they're smaller and maybe that expertise block you're supposed to focus on, you're not really focusing on.

Jonah Perlin [00:16:07]:

I guess my other question for you is, you know, and I sort of alluded to it at the introduction is you've been at the same company for almost 15 years which I think in in our parents and our parents parents generation was significantly more common than it is now. I guess my question is, what are they doing right and maybe what are you doing right that 15 years later the relationship is still strong? Well, one of the interesting things about Travelers is when you look around, there's a lot of experience. So me being at 15 years, I'm

Collin Seguin [00:16:36]:

still relatively junior, honestly, to folks. And I have a number of folks on my team who have been at the company for much longer than I have. I think a piece of it is I've always felt like they were invested in my development at every stage. And I've been remarkably fortunate. I've had wonderful managers including my current manager, Jim Summers, who's just the most wonderfully supportive mentor manager that you can think of folks in legal, Katie Rowe, who's a phenomenaler. I mean, all the managers I've had have been great. And even Solena Gervino leads subrogation for the company, and that's a big role. And I think -- Mhmm. -- perhaps at other places somebody in that big of a role you'd every once in a while, and they might know you by face. But when you look at her and you look at leadership at the company, they too have shown that they're invested in me. Now it's a two Way street. I have to show the effort, and I have to work hard, and I have to show that I'm that I'm really invested in my own development But -- Mhmm. -- the people I've worked with in leadership, when they see that you're invested in your development and they see that you have potential, they really they they really do things to help you develop that, whether it's additional responsibility, whether it's handling cases that are higher complexity or just providing the opportunity for you to advance either within the organization Perlin other organizations. And that's if I didn't have that, I don't think I would have been staring my 15th anniversary so close.

Jonah Perlin [00:18:17]:

Who now lead a team and and you're taking on more of those mentoring roles, I guess, is there one thing that you've learned from these incredible mentors that you've talked about that you wanna make part of your own mentoring process, some lesson, some story, something that you think, you know, when I'm in that position, I wanna make sure I do this. I think something that's been common across all of my mentors is

Collin Seguin [00:18:41]:

very direct advice and also being an advocate. So being a mentor doesn't mean telling people what they want to hear. Being a mentor is having those discussions about where you're doing well. and where you have opportunity. And that's important because you can't correct an opportunity unless you know about it. And it's all been approached in the right way, but you learn from that and you develop it. I mean, one of the lessons I learned from Ventures was that idea of being strategic about what you take on and had a very had conversation with me about you're taking on too much. And at some point, you're not gonna be able to move forward with all that on your shoulders, and that was something I needed to hear. But you also need advocates. And, again, you have to show to people that you're worth advocating for But I've been lucky that I have people who are advocates for me and who advocate for me getting additional responsibility who advocate for me learning things and getting opportunities. For me, what's the type of mentor I want to be? I want to be someone who's that type of mentor and that type of advocate for my for whoever's talking to me.

Jonah Perlin [00:19:54]:

Yeah. I love how you framed your successes and your opportunities. Right? So that's a very intentional framing, and you said it a couple of times, which me think it's been drilled into you that you should see

Collin Seguin [00:20:06]:

what might be seen in internally as shortcomings instead as opportunity. You talk a little bit more about that? Sure. So when you advance, there's this idea. Sometimes I think of automatic advancement. Right? You learn something. You go to the next level. You you go to the next level. And it's not just additional knowledge. It's also we're not perfect. Right? We have things as we go along that we should be addressing to to become even better. So it's not just learning new skills, it's refining the skills that you have. So I've always been and this is partially a personality type, I think. I've always been someone who examines what I do very closely and sometimes focuses on the opportunity more than the things that are are going well. But if you look at it as an opportunity. Look at it as something that, yes, that's something that I don't do as well as I could, but I can get better at it. and hear the ways I can. And when I do, that will be removed as a blockade to me being better at what I do, whether it's advancement, enroll, just getting better within your role or advancement to the next level of your career?

Jonah Perlin [00:21:15]:

And it sounds like throughout your career at Travelers, you've had to both be a client sort of to other folks in the business You have clients out in the world. You've played the legal role and spoken to Jurries, but also now Howard sort of have to speak the business role Can you talk just a little bit about sort of how you translate being a lawyer in all of these various roles? So the transition from being a lawyer to a client was difficult in that as a lawyer, you're the one giving legal advice, and you have control of that. And then as the client, you're the one taking the legal advice and coming into my current role

Collin Seguin [00:21:50]:

I kept telling myself, Colin, you're not the lawyer anymore because it would be unfair to the lawyer, the person who came into my role, if I were to try to overarch on that plus I'm not the lawyer, I'm the client. Mhmm. And from a practical standpoint, that's something really important to understand. But it's also trying cases to juries is it might be the best training you have to how to communicate to groups because node 2 juries are the same, and you quickly learn that how you present a case really, you'd have to tailor it to the jury. So the first trial I had did not go well. Say more about that. So so the first trial I had ended up on the front page of the Connecticut Law Tribune and not in a way that I want. It it was we took a loss on it. And, really, after that, So a couple of things. One was I went back to the office and felt like the world had fallen through, and everybody in every leadership position did everything to tell me It happens. You did your best. We still think you're fantastic, which at that point as a young lawyer, a year and a half into practice, I don't know if I could have continued on without that support. But it also taught me that I went into that case presenting it in the way that made the most sense to me but it did make the most sense to the people in the jury box, and that was obvious. So as I went through, one thing I learned was you present case is different teacher. You do voidede or you find out who the jurors are, and then you tweak your presentation in the way that's going to help your client the most. and that differs by jury. Now translate that to whether it's my coverage council role or my current role Each audience is different. Each group has a different focus. You may be talking to one business area where the focus is a, and you may be talking to a different focus area where the focus is be, you have to tailor the message whether you're making a recommendation or whether you're just explaining an issue. No two audiences are the same, and trying cases really taught me that. I also firmly believe if you can walk in and talk to a jury and and they they agree with what you're saying and they render a verdict in your client's favor, you can talk to anybody because that is a pressure filled situation with a bunch of people you don't know. And if you can do that, I really think you can translate into the talking to to really anybody.

Jonah Perlin [00:24:16]:

Yeah. It's it's something we say from day 1, at least in my class, and I'm sure most other sort of one else hear this all the time, which is you always wanna focus on the purpose of whatever you're doing and the audience. And the exact same task but with a different audience or the exact same audience with a different task means you have to do something different. I guess the challenge that's always related to that is, well, then how do I learn to do it? And so I guess my question is now, especially as sort of playing that client role, what tips would you give to sort of lawyers who present to you

Collin Seguin [00:24:54]:

to sort of do that better? So a discussion with with a group or with a client or with a business partner is like a conversation with anybody else. So if you think about We have groups of friends with different backgrounds. Right? So if you have a friend with an accounting background and you're talking about an accounting issue, you're starting a different place than if you're talking to them about nuclear physics. So we have different audiences in our lives, and we know intuitively that how we frame things. We know that from a personality standpoint, there are people where you start with the bad news first and then the explanation. and there are people where you start with the explanation and then give them the news. That's no different than in the business world. There are internal clients or business partners where you have to start from Square One and go into a lot of detail. There are business partners and clients who know the issues and you can start at Square Ten instead. Mhmm. So it's really taking skills that we already have in our day to day lives and applying them to business and applying them to the day to day work. And then just understanding here a client is, I mean, the lawyers who work with me know my background, and they know the depth at which they can talk to me about certain issues, and they know what I don't know where they have to go into more detail about it. So I think sometimes we think too much about it, and then you get paralyzed and you're not sure how to explain something. Think at your core, if you think about we know different people who have different backgrounds and we communicate with them at different depths, that is going to help you to translate those skills to to the workplace and to the business world.

Jonah Perlin [00:26:38]:

And I guess I'm curious. How are you doing most of your communication with your team? Are are you Having a lot of one on one meetings, is it done by email, done in presentations,

Collin Seguin [00:26:49]:

done in PowerPoint, done in memos? What are the ways that you communicate in your practice? So everybody who reports to me is in some place other than Connecticut, and that's the way it's been since I took on this role back in 2017. There are and in the organization, there are a few of us who are in Hartford, but the majority of the organization is outside of Hartford. So if you have folks who are remote you you need to be more intentional about making the connections with them. So a lot of phone calls, you know, voice to voice, it in this COVID world, obviously, travel is not the way it was a few years ago. Sure. So that's even more important. emails I mean, my view on emails is I don't email anybody overnight, where it's the first thing they're opening up in the morning. And I try not to email on weekends because there's that pressure, right, where you open up Outlook, and there's an email from your boss first thing in the morning. I'm very aware of that as a thing. So if it's if I'm having a discussion with somebody where it's a tougher discussion, that's always by phone. That's not by email. Email is more for updates and things like that and to keep everybody up to date on what's going on across the enterprise, but I do heavily utilize one on ones with them talking on the phone and just phone check ins. How's everything going? How are you feeling? Is there anything I can do to support what you're doing? Hey. You did acts, and you did a wonderful job on it. That's the other thing that I'm very big on. If you do something well,

Jonah Perlin [00:28:21]:

getting an email or Seguin a phone call, that was great. thank you for doing that just to I do feel like that helps keep people going. And do you think that changed at all? It was a huge change for me, right, to go from teaching in person to teaching online being with my students in my office to not having met my students all year, you know, I think the legal world and the business world is starting to open back up. But I keep seeing these articles on the Internet. You know? What should we learn for people who are remote from this COVID experience? And I've seen a lot of people say, who worked remotely, the COVID remote is not real remote. So what are your thoughts on that since you've had a little more experience working with people all over the place? So I think that's definitely been a struggle for folks. And what you've seen over the course of the year is

Collin Seguin [00:29:05]:

people who wanted to work full time in the office now even more so wanna work full time in the office and get back to it. But, realistically, for us, because people are in different places, that focus on how you communicate has always been something pre COVID. I had folks who were in an office in Georgia. Now I have folks who are in Georgia, but maybe not in an office. So the place is different, but the community location strategies and how you approach it. I don't think it's changed as much for us. Now when I talk to our learners, sometimes there is more of a change, especially the outside law firms and different law firms have different approaches. Talking to people so our organization handles losses all over the country and in Canada. So you get different perspectives from how someone in one state is handling it based on what their state is doing versus another state versus Canada. If you talk to somebody in Ontario, So that's been interesting to hear those different perspectives. And I think it's almost easier sometimes when everybody's doing the same thing. So at the outset when everybody was home. When all the courts were closed, everything was shut down. You knew what to expect. Now because jurisdictions are different in what they're doing. I mean, we just heard in Connecticut about things reopening more because there's more diversity of what jurisdictions are doing. That can be a little bit tougher to keep track of because -- Mhmm. whether you're doing things in state x could be different than state y. So that's something that as we open up, I think, is gonna be just something that that could be a challenge again until there's commonality across the place.

Jonah Perlin [00:30:52]:

Yeah. Is there one sort of one thing you'd recommend for people who are going to keep sort of some part of their practice either from the leader's perspective or from the team's perspective. Is there one thing you'd recommend doing sort of in a post COVID world that you might not have done in a COVID world while you move to more remote work. I think it's just keeping that connection with people. It's very easy to do that. If you can walk down the hall and say, hi, grab coffee, fee.

Collin Seguin [00:31:17]:

It's harder to do that if you're remote, and you never want someone to feel like they're on an island. Right? It's I mean, something I've always valued with every manager I've had is if I needed them, I could get them. It doesn't matter. My last manager in legal was in Maryland and Kevin Walgreens. If I needed him on something, it was like he was down the hall. And that was a lesson for me because I'd always had local management. So have that connection with people. If you're in one state and they're in another state, They should feel like they're down the hall. They should feel like you're accessible. It's more work on your part as a manager to be that available, including time zone differences. but it makes such a big difference with engagement with the team, with trust with the team. At the end of the day, people feel more valued. I I think if they have that

Jonah Perlin [00:32:04]:

So I wanna go back a little bit and talk a little bit about law school. So I know you went to law school at night, while you were working full time, I think you said to me you were also on a journal. How did you do it? What was the experience like? And I know I'm finding that a lot of the listeners of the podcast are actually people who haven't decided whether or not they're gonna go to law school or have decided but haven't decided where and when. So for somebody considering going to school at night, I'd love to hear about your experience of the good, bad, and ugly. So first of all, having a wife who is incredibly patient and understood what I wanted to do and was supportive was huge. I mean, my wife, Shelly, was I I couldn't have done it if she wasn't supportive the way she was. And we didn't have kids yet, but

Collin Seguin [00:32:45]:

I would so I would leave in the morning to go into the office. I'd get there around 8:30. Work from 8 to 5 or 8:30 to 5 or even to 6. go over to the campus for 6:30, be there from 6:30 to 9 or 9:30, come back home and do work. So it was lawn days. I mean, they're and so they're you're the first thing I would tell somebody if they're going to do both work and law school is that it's not it's not easy. It's a lot of time, and I'd made the decision that I wanted to graduate as soon as I could. So I took classes over the summer, and was done in three and a half years, which was great. But it's very much here. You've got your foot to the pedal. the entire time. And that balance can be tough sometimes in that you have especially if you have a job that takes something out of you and then you go and you're listening to these concepts that you're learning, you know, going through your first time running through cost tuition of law, and you've worked a 10 hour a day and you're going through the dormant commerce clause, sometimes you it can take a few times to run through it. But for me, it was the only way I could do it. And the choice was either do it this way and I get to be a lawyer. or I don't do that, and, ultimately, I won't become a lawyer. So for me, it was the trade off was worth it because I was going to put myself in the position to do something that I wanted to do. But it is a lot of work. It requires the support of your employer. Again, I've had I had fantastic support. They understood I was a law student for exams. I took I did take some time off to get ready for exams. I actually took a leave of absence when I stayed for the bar so I could focus on that. So there was that support and that understanding that I needed that was something I needed to do. So that was critical. And then just when you have the opportunity to take a breath, Whether it's going for a run, whether it's, you know, going to the gym, whether it's running errands for the day, take those opportunities when you can because they can be few and far between sometimes.

Jonah Perlin [00:34:56]:

And what was so What was so powerful about becoming a lawyer for you that made you say, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this even though I know it's gonna be a long

Collin Seguin [00:35:09]:

3 or 4 years. What's got you started and what kept you going? It was funny. I went to college to be a sports writer. I wrote for the local paper. I was involved in this organization, youth journalism International, which is still around and fantastic and got the opportunity to cover ESPN, which is based in Bristol where I grew up. Right. Got to do some a lot of sports reporting and I liked it. But I think it was my 2nd year my sophomore year at BUI took a class. And I had been interested in the loss somewhat. There were local lawyers who I thought were great, but I I didn't fully have a concept of it. And then my software year, I took a class that was communication law where we talked about First Amendment Law, we talked about the cases involving newspapers. And the professor was someone who was a lawyer, but also had a journalist background. And I was finding that more interesting than the journalism work itself. And I started digging into it. I was really interested in it both from a intellectual standpoint, but also it felt like lawyers could make differences and make change and drive things developed through case LawPods the ones who helped develop that, it was the clients, and that was the lawyers who were the ones helping to lead those causes. So that was something that really resonated with me. And by the time I was done with college, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer, but I also knew I wasn't in a position to do that right after college. that was something that was gonna be a couple years down the road. And they worked for the Boston Bar Association and got to know lots of lawyers there and see what they did and that just that really drove it home for me. That was a career. I wanted to do it. It was a path I wanted to take, and I was gonna do whatever I could to to do that.

Jonah Perlin [00:36:53]:

You know, it's also interesting for me to hear that and this was true for me as well. I mean, I didn't start law school thinking, I wanna be a litigator, and it certainly didn't start law school thinking, I wanted to, you know, teach legal writing and run a podcast on the side. That was not why I guess my question for you, do you still have sort of that interest in those journalistic constitutional law issues even though that's not what you ended up practicing And for those people who are thinking, you know, do I have to do the thing that I'm obsessed about in the law? How how do you balance that sort of, intellectual interest in sort of what you do every day. So I follow the cases.

Collin Seguin [00:37:29]:

Twitter's great for following folks who are fully involved in that, both seeing their perspective in being up to date on the legal issues. I read a lot. I when case law comes down, Supreme Court cases on issues, I read it to you. So for me, I look at that as more general interest being up to date on the lawn. I can still feed that hunger through that. but I knew Seguin and I had the advantage of working at the place and working now during law school. So I could meet the people. I could learn about the company and decide it was a place I wanted to be. But I can still when a big case comes out, take a look at it, interact with smart people to get their perspective on it, and that that satisfies that piece of it while still while still loving what I'm doing. Yeah. And the cool part right, when you talked about your current job, you talked about the things you get to do. Right? You talked about the skills you have, but you can also have intellectual curiosity. as a result of your legal education, and and you seem to have really found a way to balance those 2 things. Absolutely. I mean, I I have a lot of friends in in the company who their lawyers or that are in legal roles or non legal roles. So when these issues come up, we we talk about it. Right? We at lunch or we have coffee and talk about, hey. Did you just see that decision or that piece of legislation? And you talk about so I have that intellectual out I mean, I'm my wife is worked in politics and is super knowledgeable about politics and government. So we talk about those things as well. So I think you you hit the nail on the head. It's you have that outlet for those interests, and you can be intellectually curious And I think you need to be intellectually curious to be a good lawyer. Whatever area you go into, so it's just another way to really feed and satisfy that curiosity.

Jonah Perlin [00:39:23]:

So you're a obviously, a business leader. I've seen on social media and other places that you're you're a pretty big runner. You have to kids. You have lots of hobbies. You're a mentor.

Collin Seguin [00:39:36]:

How do you do it all? So the first thing is, I mean, with the kids, it's carving out time, and it's family time. It's not family time while you're doing anything other things, it's family time. And, again, my wife has a very demanding job as well. We've been married for it's 16 years this year. And so we have a really good balance of knowing she knows when something's really busy on my I know when something's really busy on her. And we work that out, and we're able to come to to handle that and manage it. And and the kids. We just carve out time for the kids, whether it's going hiking, whether it's running errands, what whether it's biking around the neighborhood. Like, if and I just got bikes. So we bike around the neighborhood. I'm a little awkward, so sometimes I'm behind the group. But Kirby thing time for things like run or working out carving out time for reading. It's you can do it some days. It's harder than others, but I used to think about things in the course of a day. Right? So you may have a day that's particularly busy and you kick yourself because things aren't as balanced. And I started to think it's not balanced in the hour and the day. It's balanced overall. So you have some days where you're not doing any work. you have some days when you feel like you're working and that's it. But if overall things feel balanced, then that's the goal. And the other piece is just support from folks I work with. I mean, I it's something I meant I I've mentioned, but my dad was sick and passed away last year, and it was a very difficult year on top of everything else. He got sick early in the year, and he passed away in November. And I needed more balance last year. than the normal. I need to step away from things. And especially as we got closer to November and Jim Summers, my My boss was basically whatever you need will support. Elena was whatever you need will support. My team all of them checking in, hey, Colin. How are you doing? Whatever it is you need will support. And if you have that, then you feel like you have the permission to balance. You feel like you don't need to be focused on something 247. I guess, related to that and related to other things, you can be really good at what you do without what you do being everything you are. And that's what I've learned with from the people I've worked with and from friends is that they're really talented successful people who it's not their entire identity. And if you think about that helps to really conceptualize why balance know, as much as you can get is important and just a a healthy way of looking at things.

Jonah Perlin [00:42:13]:

Wow. Yeah. I you know, I haven't thought about it just like that, but that makes so much sense. I would pull out from what you just said that the horizon from which you look at balance has a huge impact. Whether you look at it on the day level, that's rarely gonna work. Look. I'll be candid here. I find that I have more trouble now working from home in the COVID era, turning off the work part and finding that balance. And I guess I'm curious if you've experienced or people on your team have experienced that and what you'd recommend to those of us who would love to maybe get back on the bike or get back on the running trail? Well, I think as a manager, I've cut down on

Collin Seguin [00:42:52]:

nighttime emails, weekend emails, or emails that are somehow side of business hours. there has to be a clean break. And look, in my role and my position, it's more expected that I they may have to deal with things like that and that's but then my boss has been is is really good about that. So that's a lesson I've taken. It's also, for me, physically, I leave my laptop in a certain room. I don't when I'm done with the day, and I don't take it with me at different places now when I work in different places sometimes because that's just how I am. But at the end of the day, I don't leave the laptop in an area where I may feel inclined to just check-in because we know what happens. You check-in -- Sure. -- quote unquote. And then 2 hours later, you dove into something and you're in there, especially because our jobs, you know, are very involved, and we if you love what you do, you're gonna wanna keep doing it. But it's really, I think, setting boundaries for yourself and then few folks on the team making sure that you're respecting the time boundaries for other people and never making someone feel like they always have to be there at the drop of a hat. And we have control over that for our lawyers, for our outside lawyers, we have control that for the people we work with as well. The other thing I heard from your answer

Jonah Perlin [00:44:11]:

before was that being part of a team requires you to be a part of a team. And it's I think There's a danger in law and in law school, especially when we're online candidly to feel like I'm just gonna put my head down and be my own entity. And at least from my perspective, that's a mistake. And it sounds like that would be your perspective as well. Absolutely. You have to have that connection.

Collin Seguin [00:44:34]:

No one does things on their own without relying on other. whether you're in an office where maybe you're a solo, but you have folks who are working with you. You work at company and have folks who are doing similar roles, you're a professor and you have other faculty. There's you're never on an island, and that's I say that a lot and people hear that a lot No one succeeds on an island by themselves. You're always working with somebody relying on somebody else just being sensitive to that and understanding that.

Jonah Perlin [00:45:01]:

it makes things all the better. Colin, this has been fantastic. I always end these. Although, I feel like you've given so much advice. But is there something that someone told you or something that you tend to tell people who are more junior than you specifically in the law that you would recommend to to the world?

Collin Seguin [00:45:20]:

pay it forward. Right? Nobody succeeds without having to mentor an advocate for them. So if you've been the beneficiary of that and and I have, like I said, whether it's Jim or Amy or Katie or Kevin or all these people or Scott or all these people who helped me pay that forward. be a mentoring advocate for somebody else, and then they'll pay it forward. And that's really how things develop. Sometimes you don't know that you can do it until somebody gives you the confidence that you can do it. So if somebody's done that for you, then pay it forward and do that for somebody else.

Jonah Perlin [00:45:56]:

Again, that was Colin Seguin, insurance lawyer at Travelers in Hartford, Connecticut. I learned so much from our conversation, not only about insurance law, but also about how to be a mentor how to be a mentee, and how to find balance even in the most challenging times. If you enjoyed the episode, I hope you'll consider subscribing at how iloyer.com or wherever you get your podcasts, and sharing the podcast with family, friends, and colleagues. As always, I can be reached at howilawyer@gmail.com or at Jonah Perlin on Twitter for comments or suggestions. Thanks again to Colin. Thanks for listening, and have a great week.