#021: Panel Opinion (Special) - How To Succeed as a Legal Intern or Summer Associate (Especially in a Remote or Hybrid World)

This transcript was generated by AI.

Jonah Perlin [00:00:04]:

Hello, and welcome back for new listeners to the podcast. My name is Jonah Perlin, and I'm a law professor in Washington DC at Georgetown where I teach legal practice and legal writing. Every week on this podcast, I host an interview with a lawyer about what they do, why they do and how they do it well. The idea behind the podcast is that one way to learn about our profession is through the personal stories of those who do it. I just posted our 20th episode and all so it's can be easily found at the new and improved website how iloyer.com, or you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. but today's episode's a little different. This is the first in a series featuring the views and experiences of a panel of practitioners on a single topic as opposed to a single lawyer story. Don't worry, the traditional episodes will still be the vast majority of what I do. As always, if you have feedback, please let me know at how I lawyer atgmail.com or at Jonah Perlin on Twitter. And with that introduction, I wanna welcome our fantastic panel of friends and former colleagues to discuss today's topic how to succeed in a summer legal internship or summer associate position. I'll just add this caveat as with any advice, your mileage may vary, and there may be some points disagreement with or among the panelists, which is just fine. That said, I'm a 100% confident that listening to and following their advice will be an exceptionally valuable choice for those of you starting in internships and maybe those running internship programs as well. So the panel, first up, we have Natasha Zech. Natasha is the director of attorney recruiting, diversity, and development at My Old Law Firm Williams And Connolly LLP here in DC. And in that role, Natasha wears a number of hats, but most important for today's episode, she's the coordinator of hiring and the summer associate program, which, as I can attest, is both a former summer associate and firm lawyer are just stellar. that Tasha has been at Williams And Connolly for the past 11 years. And before that, was a litigator at several firms in the DC area and a law clerk on the DC Superior Court. She's a graduate of UVA, Go Cavaliers, and the Georgetown University Law Center, Go Hoyas. Welcome to Tasha.

Natasha Zech [00:01:56]:

Thanks, Jonah.

Jonah Perlin [00:01:57]:

Next up, we have professor Rachel Gurvich, who's a clinical associate professor of law at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Like me, professor Gervic teaches legal research and writing and has also served as the cochair of the clerkship Committee. She's well known on social media for her work supporting law students, not just at UNC, but also across the country. often under the Twitter hashtag Practice Tuesday. Before UNC, she clicked on the United States Court of Appeals for the 1st Circuit and practiced 7 years at Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale Ador in Boston where she specialized in patent and appellate litigation and helped run that office's summer associate program. She's a graduate of UNC, Go Heals, and Harvard Law, Go Crimson. Welcome, Rachel.

Rachel Gurvich [00:02:35]:

Thanks for having me.

Jonah Perlin [00:02:37]:

Glad you're here. And last but not least, we have my friend in college classmate, Jeanian Cruz, who's a council at Venable LLP in Washington DC, where she practices real estate law. Gene started at Venable as a summer associate a decade ago and has been practicing there since graduation. Gene also spent 2 years co running the office's summer program and has served as well on the firm's hiring Mitty. She's a graduate of Princeton, go tigers, and Penlock, go quakers. Welcome, Jean. Thanks, Jonah. Great to be here. Awesome. I'll just add it. It's so fun to have three people from three parts of my life all on the same episode. So I wanna start with the big question of what each of you thinks should be the goal or goals of a student summer experience while in law school, especially if those goals may not be so obvious or at least maybe obvious in retrospect And I'm gonna start with Natasha, and then we'll work around the horn.

Natasha Zech [00:03:26]:

Sure. Thanks. There are lots of answers to this question. I'd say first, your summer experience is an exploratory mission. Right? So you go through OCI and you pick the city that you wanna be in and the firm that you think best suits your interest, But it's also a low risk opportunity to try something new. And so you may love your antitrust class and say, I wanna be an antitrust lawyer. Or as most of us, I wanna be a 1st Amendment slash criminal slash appellate lawyer. Right? But having an open mind, maybe you try IP. Maybe this is the summer that you do that even if you don't have a science So it's actually wonderful opportunity, I think, to have an open mind to try something new. The second thing which I know can be a little challenging in the virtual environment is to find out, like, the stickiness. What keeps people at that or that organization. Right? Why did they come? Why are they still there? And trying to figure that out and not just coming for the work, but for the people entering interview and we sort of laugh that everyone says, why are you here? because of the people. k. Well, let's dig a little bit deeper into why that is. I'm looking at the relationships that people have with their colleagues or with people side of the office with opposing counsel if you're at a firm or with the staff if you're at a firm, things like that to sort of figure out the culture of the place and why you may wanna join after graduation at the end summer.

Jonah Perlin [00:04:36]:

Awesome. Gene.

Jeanian Cruz [00:04:38]:

And just to expand on the second point that Natasha made first, you wanna be able to experience a little bit of what is a day in the life. Again, a little bit harder in a remote summer like this one, but just to get the sense of, like, what is the ebb and flow? Like, how many people do I talk to during the day? Like, how does work come to me? How does work come out from me? How do I interact with people? Just what does my schedule look like? And I would say the second point for a good goal for summer associates should be to meet as many people as you can across the firm. I'm speaking from the firm perspective, but when you join at our firm, you join a group as a 1st year. And so when you start in a group, your life tends to follow the rhythms of that group pretty quickly. But when you're a summer associate, you are a free agent. You get to work across different groups. You get to meet lots of different attorneys from all over the firm, and that is a it's a really good opportunity, not just to get to know those people and what they do, but just after you start as a 1st year, you'll know them. You'll have some contacts in other groups, and that's always great in a firm where you have to work across subject areas.

Jonah Perlin [00:05:48]:

Awesome. Rachel?

Rachel Gurvich [00:05:50]:

Yeah. I'll speak a little bit more broadly. My own experience was at a big loss setting, but I know that's not sort of where all students are going to wind up this summer. And so it's not necessarily the case that a particular summer experience would directly translate into an off or a position afterwards because not all organizations are set up like that. So in those settings, I think one really important thing to focus on is what kinds of lawyer appeals to you. So not just a substantive practice area, right? So Natasha mentioned IP or antitrust. That's interesting too. sort of how do you want to actually spend your days? Do you want to be sitting, doing legal research on Westlaw? Do you want to be drafting briefs? Do you want to be actually talking to people, talking to clients, sort of observing depositions. Is that something you wanna be doing? Is it setting where you wanna set yourself up to get into a courtroom. I think those sort of skills and experiences and sort of workflow patterns and figuring out which suits you best even if it's not necessarily at the organ is that you will be able to start at post graduation is particularly helpful. And then the corollary is developing skills that will transfer. So, developing sort of research efficiency and being able to figure out when does a project call for depth versus breadth or hearing out just sort of how to work and as part of a team or work with a direct supervisor and understand that supervisor's preferences and how to deliver the product that she expects. So even if it's not the setting where post graduation, you're gonna start your first job focusing on what kinds of lawyering appeals to me and what kinds of lawyering do I want to look for in that first job and developing the skills that you can take and be portable from one position to another?

Jonah Perlin [00:07:32]:

Yeah. It's really interesting. I had an interview last week with someone who will be on the podcast who said one of his favorite questions to ask people who he doesn't totally know what they do is if I stood behind you the entire day, what kinds of activities would I do? And all of your answers remind me, that's basically what being a summer intern or summer associate is. It's sort of formal process for following people around. All of that said, we're in a weird summer. One of the biggest shifts this year as everybody knows is, I know, most of last year's summer classes both at firms and judges and other areas were fully remote this summer. I know there's a mix There's a lot of firms that I know are still using fully remote. Some are doing hybrid. Some are having fully in person, but then they're gonna need to see people who are in other offices or remote. So I guess my question is what are some specific suggestions or actual tips you have going into this sort of unique, remote first summer?

Natasha Zech [00:08:32]:

So I can take that 1. I I will say these are actually quite, like, practical tips, but I think they're indicative of something greater to the firm. First is we've all had to manage distractions, right, and be able to pivot, where your dog or your child or your roommate or whoever wanders into the background. But I do think showing how you can pivot from a distraction and manage those things is it can be a really great indication of what you're gonna be like as a member of that organization down the road. Right? if you completely panic versus saying, can I put myself on mute or I'm gonna, you know, turn off my camera for a moment? It it's a small thing. Right? But I think it it can be indicative of sort of how you handle a crisis or something unexpected. The other thing is just Zoom and Webex and all of these platforms are very passive. Right? So you just sort of log in and you sit. It doesn't really give you an opportunity to be as proactive as you might be in an in person setting. So little things like actually learning how to set up that conference call, actually learning how to set up that Zoom call and being the person who initiates things. versus the person who logs in in a sort of passive. So but if you have that opportunity to actually set something up or you are initiating something, it shows that you have some initiative that you can be a little bit proactive setting up. So those are 2 small things, but my thing can go a long way because we spend so much time in front of the screen. Totally. Rachel?

Rachel Gurvich [00:09:48]:

One thing that I really appreciated about an in office summer associate experience is as somebody who was not necessarily comfortable in the settings sort of right off the bat. I, like, felt like I didn't belong, and I didn't know people, and I felt like we were in some ways from different worlds. And I know a lot of students feel that in their their 1st week. I appreciated sort of being able to go get coffee at the coffee maker and, like, run into somebody and chat. Right? because I was comfortable with, like, small talk, but, like, once you put me in, like, a fancy restaurant and gave me, like, sushi, I didn't know what to do with myself. So that is what I think is missing from the summer associate experience it is fully remote? Are those sort of casual interactions that sort of come to you? And so I think this really follows up on Natasha's last point, which is you can't sort of be passive and sort of expect to run into somebody and have that casual conversation that turns into a connection at a cocktail hour or something like that. And so really being proactive then about reaching to meet people. Right? But Jean also talked about it's meet as many people as you can. Right? And so certainly, I know, you know, a lot of summer programs will be facilitating that in many ways, and they'll be great. But if there's somebody who's practice you really are interested in or whose career path, is fascinating to you or somebody who your associate mentor guesses that you should really meet Natasha because she's fantastic and she's a great mentor. Really not being afraid to send that email and be the first person to say, I'd love to set up a Zoom over coffee and chat about your work chat about your career path. I always tell my students that lawyers have giant egos, and they love talking about themselves, and they love talking about their work. And so that question. It's not gonna be off putting at all. If they don't have time or they're in the middle of a trial or something, they'll just say, I'd love to, but I can't this week help out at the end of the summer. And I think those opportunities go a long way towards making the connections. And it is sort of scarier to do kind of a cold Zoom with somebody you don't know. But one one way to sort of do that is to think about maybe doing it with a friend, right, so one of your other summers trying to set up an informal meeting in that way to sort replicate the lunches or to talk to a junior attorney who's at the firm and knows people and has been in person with them, and she or he will be able to suggest, oh, this person would be great, and they're very warm and welcoming, and then they'll be able to adjust other people for you to meet. So I think that's definitely something to be aware of at this particular summer. Mhmm. Jean? Yep. Great points, Natasha, and Rachel. The only other thing I'd add is just to underline

Jeanian Cruz [00:12:10]:

the the biggest difference about remote programs this summer is that you can't have those informal interactions anymore. Our interactions do have to be planned in advance. They have to be intentional. So just remember that everybody at the firm, the attorneys that you work with, the staff that you work with, people who work in recruiting, are all there to to help you succeed and they want to help you succeed. So it's a little bit, like, standing on the stage and looking out, and it's I think someone at some point told me this advice about if you're standing on the stage looking at everybody, there's a a 1,000,000 different variations on that. What do you see in the audience? But Think of everyone in the audience as, like, holding up tens. They want you to do a great job. They're cheering for you. That's what you should think of your summer as, and all the attorneys and the staff around, you want you to succeed. So, hopefully, that'll give you that extra tiny little boost of confidence if you feel like you you would like to reach out and you wanna talk to somebody in this group, but you don't really know how to get started. Reach out to the person you feel most comfortable with. if it's the summer program coordinator, have them make an introduction. Or as Rachel said, reach out with a friend together I think those are all great things that you can do to just be a little bit more intentional about making that connection.

Jonah Perlin [00:13:28]:

Totally. Yeah. It's interesting. I actually think having now taught for a year on Zoom, which is a sort of different, but same problem. Some of the students are actually gonna be better at Perlin sort of turning the informal into the formal than even the people at the firm. And so several of you've already talked about the need to be proactive and sort of take the lead, this is the area where if you don't do it, no one's gonna do it for you. And that's true for your fellow summers, and I can speak from my own summer experience. I met some really close friends during that summer, and it also goes for people at the firm. Also, the cool part about Zoom is it's a great equalizer. Everyone is just a box on a screen, and it doesn't have to be out at a fancy sushi restaurant, and it doesn't have to be in the big partner's corner office with the big table, with the great view, everyone's the same. We're all most of us are just showing the background of our kids play area, and it's a great equalizer, and you should take it to your advantage. So I totally agree with all of that. And I I guess a related question that is, both tied to the hybrid summer and also just happens every summer is this balance between doing the actual work. We actually haven't talked that much about the actual work yet of your summer internship and the relationship building and the interpersonal experiences. And so I guess I'm just curious if you have thoughts on sort of best practices for maintaining that balance between putting your head down and doing legal research and doing good work. but also learning from the people interacting on a professional and even just a social level. And maybe we'll work backwards to start with Jean. Sure. So

Jeanian Cruz [00:15:03]:

again, with the remote work this summer, the way that you appear to the assigning attorney will be a little bit different. So their interactions with you, unfortunately, are limited to most likely Zoom or phone calls. So so I guess we're talking about the breakdown between actual work and kind of the social portion. As with I think with any kind of program you're in, the work obviously does come first. but that doesn't mean that you can't mix in the social. So when you talk with the assigning attorney over Zoom or over the phone, mix in a little bit of personality or ask some questions that are not directly related to the work at hand. And that's a really easy way to mix it in together and you kind of get to kill both of those birds with one stone. That's great. Yeah. Other thoughts?

Rachel Gurvich [00:15:50]:

Sure. So, one thing I think, but it's important to think of the work as, obviously, it's your opportunity to show the attorneys what you can do, and there is a mutual assessment going on, and so that's part of it. But I also think making sure that you do enough work is important for yourself to learn whether you really actually like the work that this organization does, right? So, it's not just like this is my chance prove myself, but I think it might be a little bit less intimidating if you approach it as this is my chance to figure out what I do and don't like and sort of setting up work experiences, to the extent you have flexibility in your program where you get a variety. Right? So it's not just I'm working on 1 mega project all summer or working on a series of projects, but they're all basically repeats of the same thing. Right? So, pushing out of your comfort zone or I wanna maybe work on some discovery. I don't actually know what a discovery looks like. Right? Maybe some firms will not actually let you touch discovery for very good reason. But but you know, if the idea is I wanna try something at the trial level and the appellate level if that's possible or I wanna try something in this practice group. Part the reason it's important to have work time is not so much for the firm's benefit but really for yours. And so I think keeping that in mind will help will help keep you focused as well. But I completely agree. So, a lot of the assigning will happen, I think, this year by either Zoom or even by email. And so, I work with my 1ls, I'm sure you do too, Jonah, in my legal writing classes on, like, what should emails look like, right? And so, how do you Perlin in some of that personality that Gene mentioned? and kindness without being sort of overly deferential, which I I often see students trying to, like, use the last names. Right? Dear Moose, I was like, no. No. First names are fine. And so Really just keeping mindful that you can mix and the more work you do, again, you should not overburden yourself, but it will really help you learn what you do and don't like.

Jonah Perlin [00:17:40]:

Rachel, can I ask you a follow-up to that, which is one of the challenges that I had as a summer was always feeling awkward asking for more work or asking for different work. I sort of felt like I'm the low guy on the totem pole. I should take whatever is given to me, but unless somebody is sort of knows what I wanna see, the only way for me to do that is to sort of be proactive. What are your thoughts on sort of being proactive? And then maybe Natasha can jump in after and and answer that question as well.

Rachel Gurvich [00:18:09]:

So part of this, I think, depends on how the workflow, like, happens in your particular summer program. Right? Sometimes it's, anyone can approach you with work. Sometimes it's filtered through a summer program coordinator who like a database of assignments. I am no longer affiliated with any firm, so I feel like I can say this that whatever system is in place, I think you can go around it and, right, obviously, do it with appropriate respect and deference. But if there's something you really wanna work on and there's a partner or as, you know, a senior attorney who does that work, really reach out and relate it to what I was talking about earlier and say, I would love to work on one of these cases. Is there any part of that project that, you know, that I could work on? And sort of that's the sort of going around step. But also talk to the coordinator if there is one and say, this is what I want, right? Because again, it serves nobody to have you do work that you are uninterested in is not something that you ultimately want to pursue. That's ultimately gonna decrease the chances that you return anyway if it's a returning kind of place, right? So I think just as Gene was saying earlier, everyone wants you to succeed, I think within those, within whatever parameters of what the available work, people want you to be able to do the thing that makes you the happiest and to try to figure out what that is. That makes a lot of sense. Gene, you want to jump in, and then we'll go to Natasha. Yeah. I just wanted to share that about 15 minutes before I jumped onto this recording,

Jeanian Cruz [00:19:24]:

I got an email from one of our summer associates whom I hadn't gotten the chance to meet yet. And so the way that that our assignments work at our firm is that they go into a central database that is managed by the summer program coordinators, and then it's sort of for the work filters down from there. And I had submitted a real estate assignment last week for a summer to help me with a commercial office lease. And I got a summer, and she did a great job. So I got this email about 15 minutes ago saying, I saw that that project that you put up, I was really interested. Unfortunately, it got taken really quickly. Do you have anything else that you could use help with because I'd love to try a real estate project. And I wrote back to him and then said, I will keep you in mind. And I also forwarded the email to 5 of my other colleagues and said you have anything that this student could work on because he's interested in real estate. And just from that one email, now his name has gone to me and to 5 other attorneys in my group. And we all know his name, and we know that he's interested in real estate.

Jonah Perlin [00:20:27]:

and there's always more work to go around. And that doesn't matter if you're at a law firm or in a judicial chambers or at a government agency. there's always a lot of more work out there, and sometimes it takes somebody to ask you, do you have anything I can help with for them to say, oh, yeah. I have this project that's been sitting on my to do list, and I hadn't even got it to the point where I was gonna put it out for bid yet, and it's all yours, Natasha.

Natasha Zech [00:20:53]:

Yeah. I I was actually gonna echo Jean's point, which is to say sometimes the answer is no, that maybe what you're looking for is not available. And, obviously, there is a fine line between sort of follow-up and excessive persistence. But I think this summer associate handled it perfectly. Right? This say, could you keep me in mind? And then I think it'll probably pan out. The other thing I would say to address your point, Jonah, about kind of the anxiety of a summer when trying to ask for work. I do think it's really important to express gratitude for what you have gotten versus just saying this is not what I wanted and I wanted this other thing. that really happens, I think. But over email, sometimes the tone and communication can get lost. So I would say the way our system works where there is a database, but it is managed by a committee that will then send it out to Summers. So, you know, your initial assignment is given, and then you can kinda come back to the well, and then the the committee will give you a follow-up and they will ask what you're interested in,

Jonah Perlin [00:21:47]:

I think simply saying, oh, I would love to work on an legal malpractice case because my first one was a real estate case. but also appreciating that for most firms, this is the work of the firm. It is not necessarily make work. These are assignments that lawyers would be doing if they had time and simply saying that I would be open to other things, but expressing that I have a particular interest, I think, is is important. Yeah. You all can't see it because We're doing this as an audio podcast, but everybody's heads were shaking up and down. Yes. I totally agree. And I guess this is another related question of sort of balancing your time and balancing energy, which is candidly, I think if you're asking that question and you're listening to this, that's the right question to be asking. You should be thinking about these things. But a challenge that I know a lot of students have is sort of balancing the law firm work, right, writing memos, reading briefs, meeting with teams, maybe you have some lost school work you're still doing, like, you're working on a journal or you're doing an RA job at night and then actually just going to events. I know I intern for a judge 1 summer, And the judge said, I want you to do great work, but your number one goal is every time I'm in the courtroom, I want you in the courtroom with me. Like, I don't want you wasting any of those opportunities that aren't that many. And if you're a lawyer, maybe that's attending a deposition or participating in a client call. But how do you sort of balance all of those pieces and sort of if you had to create sort of internal priorities about how you handle it, how might you recommend it, and we'll start with Natasha.

Natasha Zech [00:23:09]:

So this I I try to find a silver lining in the online environment because I know it's tough to find them. And I'd also say this as an extrovert to the most of the introverts that I work with. I get my energy from other people. Zoom, I do find exhausting, but I think I prefer it probably more than people, just the interaction. But that's not the case for everyone. So I actually find that looking at not just your day, but your week, about what you need to get done and chunking the time, not only so you can figure out when you work best, but what is really gonna sap your energy. So because these interactions are less organic and much more planned. Right? You can look at your week and say, alright. I've got law review submissions that I need to review by Zech date. I've got my client work and these assignments, and I'm gonna carve out a certain amount of time for that. There's some lunch presentations I'd like to attend, and maybe there's one social event. When you look at that, sort of globally over the course of the week versus what may be in the office. You're like, let me just see what my day looks like. You can be a little bit more intentional in chunking your time to see what you can attend. It'll make you feel like you have a little bit more control over your schedule quite honestly, and you can do that in, obviously, in in real life versus just on Zoom. But I do think in the online environment, where you have to be a little bit more intentional in scheduling your interactions with people, it can be really helpful when you can map out kinda what your week will look like, and you may decide what After having done this for a couple of days doing a ton of legal research and then having to do law review work Maybe I don't have the energy for a wine tasting for an hour. But unlike a cocktail hour, the wine tasting will be done in 60 minutes. So you don't actually have to worry about things sort of extending on into the night. But I do think it's helpful for figuring out how you work best and when you work best to kinda figure out what your day should look like and hopefully get. Balance is maybe not the right word that I would use, but at least some structure.

Jeanian Cruz [00:24:58]:

Absolutely. Gene? I'll get on the metaphor train. So I like to tell law students when they're asking me a question about how do I order my priorities is You put everything into a bucket. You're at the beach, and you're scooping up all your sand and your rocks into your bucket, and you shake it. and you see what goes to the bottom and what goes to the top. And it's similar to what Natasha was saying. You have to kinda get the a bigger picture of what is going on, and then you can figure out what your priorities are. And then kind of the big stuff that goes to the bottom, but those are the things you need to prioritize ties. Speaking from the assigning attorney side of things, your work should definitely be done when we discuss that it will be done. unless you just have to feel it out how flexible is this deadline. Let's talk about but this ended up taking a lot longer than I expected. that's fine. Let's talk about it. But, you know, I would say work is definitely one of the most most important things, but we realize that you are here for the full experience not just to do work this summer, but to meet people and go to the events and learn things at the lunches and all that. So those things should also be filtered down to the bottom. and then you can kinda skim off the top whatever can't be done and reboot, figure it out the next week. I guess the follow-up I have to that and this is candidly because I asked on social media,

Jonah Perlin [00:26:18]:

what do people wanna know? And a bunch of lawyers jumped into the thread and said, here's what you should know, which wasn't exactly my question. That's fine. I'm glad that people answered. Lawyers like to talk about themselves, and that's actually one of the great parts that I love about social media is that they do. But I was surprised at the sort of fight almost that happened in the mentions about whether or not you should prioritize the social events if you're in a firm setting sort of above all else. And if you're at a firm that has events three times a week, do you have to go to all the events?

Rachel Gurvich [00:26:53]:

What's that line? One thing that I think is important and and, actually, I think in some ways for some people is a relief for the remote summer is I think there are just fewer social events this summer. And so the balance, I think, for this year's class, is going to be a little bit easier than maybe in other years. Because, again, you can't do like a COVID safe cooking class or whatever the sort of typical summer associate events are. I think it's really important to distinguish sort of being collegial and being social and being available and pleasant to work with from like being expected to, like, go out and and drink alcohol, for example, which is certainly not an expectation and should not be in a work place environment or going to sort of every single thing. And I think some associate program coordinators know that if there's like more than one social event per week, like people are gonna burn out and it's not sort of reasonable to expect people to to go to all of them. And so I would say if there are certain settings that you're with, prioritize those if there are certain events where certain people will be that you really wanna get to know. Again, it's it's okay to prioritize those, no one's going to sort of look for you at, especially in large your programs, right, like, oh, there was this event, this Zoom escape room, but, like, Rachel wasn't there, she must really not be committed. That's not an inference that anyone sort of draws no one's looking for that, and I think people are reasonable. So it's totally fair to go to enough that you'll get comfortable with the people and that you can make those connections. But if you were in a place mentally where like, I need to finish this project, or I need, like, a night of sitting in my room and being quiet by myself. You do that for you.

Jonah Perlin [00:28:29]:

Natasha is a summer coordinator. How do you feel about that

Natasha Zech [00:28:33]:

So some of this is, I will say, dependent on the culture and the market. Right? There are some firms that will prefer more social events. But I think, generally, most people in my shoes know that more, like, the 3 in person events cannot be replicated on Zoom. And so we we try to reduce that number, but I generally don't view social events as a command performance. You can be certainly collegial, and to Jean's point, meet as many people as possible, and and actually, and as Zoom happy, you probably can't do that. Right? You can actually be collegial and meet more people just by reaching out individually than you can in a virtual escape room or virtual wine tasting. So I actually think it's okay to skip some of those. I think, generally, the work is gonna be prioritize because that's where you're gonna interact with the lawyers the most. In large group settings, you may say, alright. Well, I've gotten free wine or free cheese. shipped to my house, which is great. I say that as because those are the things we have planned for the next 2 weeks. Really, at the end of the day, what you're there to do is figure out if this is where you want to work and try to to meet as many lawyers as possible, and that's probably gonna happen with the small group interactions anyway. So I'm the person who loves social events, who loves people, and is the revert. I am telling people you do not have to do all of the social events because, ultimately, they're not gonna matter in the virtual summer as much as your small team interactions. I will say too, you should still come to them because they're fun. And who doesn't love free stuff? One thing I will say too, talk to the 3 elves. They went through this tube, and they were kind of the guinea pigs. And there are probably some great lessons to be learned from them about their experience, what worked and what didn't work, some small group interactions or large group interactions that they liked or didn't like, so I think it's helpful to talk to upper class men about their experience from last year. Jean? Yeah. And

Jeanian Cruz [00:30:14]:

remember that this summer is a preview of what your professional life could be. It's also a reflection of how far you've come through a high school, college, law school, building all the different life skills that you've gathered over the years. And so it's okay to listen to your internal barometer if it says I really can't handle going to this event tonight. That's fine. Trust a little bit in your own judgment because that judgment is such an important part of being a good lawyer. So you just have to keep building that sense of good judgment.

Jonah Perlin [00:30:47]:

Absolutely. And and I guess maybe I'll have to now come back and be the supporter of the social events. Right? The social events are do sometimes take you out of your comfort zone, and that's okay too. That's true at social events in law school. That's true at social events in life, and I tended to be somebody who wanted to keep my door closed and be bookish and sit in the computer. And I met 1 or 2 partners at summer events that ended up being people I worked with when I came back to the firm. And so they do serve a purpose, but I think what everybody say for fear of summarizing multiple lawyers, which is always a danger, is don't think that quantity is more important than quality and no one is sitting there with an attendance checklist. They will notice if you go to no social events the whole summer, they will probably notice if you go to every single one, but if you're somewhere comfortably in the middle that fits you and your personality, that's probably just a a fine good place to be. And so following up on Jean's last point, I guess my question and this is funny because I got it from 2 different students, but phrased very differently. So one student asked what is sort of the one thing from the firm's perspective or if you're interning for a judge, the judge's perspective, that's going to be the difference between getting a yes they worked here versus yes they worked here, and you should absolutely hire them. I got the same question from another student, which is what is the one thing I shouldn't do so that I don't lose my recommendation or lose my offer of employment? So I'll let you answer the sort of positive frame version of the question or the negative frame version of the question. Let's start with Rachel, then we'll go to Natasha.

Rachel Gurvich [00:32:23]:

The baseline is complete the work you have committed to completing and to the best of your abilities. And make sure that you are meeting the deadlines or communicating well in advance about why that deadline will not be feasible if there is a good reason for that. One thing that I think a lot of junior attorneys or summer associates can do that really will set them apart. So here is, like, a positive framing is often you are given a very small chunk of an assignment. Right? So research this one particular issue that we're going to write up in a brief or research this one aspect of the question. And sometimes the assigning attorney gives it to you in a vacuum because that's faster and that's easier. And sometimes that's the only available way to get that assignment, which I think is fine and you do the assignment completed. But one thing that I always say to students and to to junior term uses, you have to understand why you're doing that assignment. Right? So, what how will this work product ultimately be used? Right? What is the context in which this is coming up so that if you happen to be reading a case that gives you a different argument that maybe is also applicable, you can flag that too. Right? So, again, so you don't need to be asking the attorneys for a full brief on everything that's been going on on that matter. But really understanding why and understanding sort of strategically where this fits in the rest of the work and not only being an expert in that small thing that you are asked to do, but sort of seeing the larger context how it fits in and getting the big picture. I think that really is something that distinguishes a lot of junior attorneys. And sometimes it's just about asking questions that show you're really thinking about it. Right? You don't have to have the answers. You are a second year lawsuit But, you know, answering asking really good questions that show you sort of can think of 4 moves down the board, I think, would be really helpful. And not being afraid to ask for clarification

Jonah Perlin [00:34:13]:

that would help you understand and know why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah. It's also a good reminder for people who are giving these assignments if any of you are still listening. you don't give that background and they don't ask, you might not get as good work product. And that's something I've learned now teaching it, and I saw myself, Natasha.

Natasha Zech [00:34:30]:

Yes. Rachel hit the nail right on the head, which is to think beyond the assignment. Think strategically about what it's going to be used for. Relatedly, I would also say that Some associates often don't think about the resources available to them. Right? There's a lot of looking up to associates and to counsel and to partners for instruction on what to do next but there may be staff attorneys, paralegals, litigation support who can help you redactiveness the library, right, where you're not kind of starting from scratch. So I think look around you and not just up when you're trying to figure out how to tackle a certain project because it it'll keep you from reinventing the wheel. And, again, to the earlier point about just being proactive and thinking sort of more globally about things, we are here to help. Right? The the recruiting team the library team, let's support. All of those folks are here to help in a rooting for you. And so let us be there. There are ton of resources. And in most places, a lot of times, the staff out actually outnumbers. the the lawyers. So I do think that it's a great opportunity for you to kind of reach out to people. And then quite frankly, in this virtual summer environment, you really won't get to interact with the staff. as much because of the way the program is structured with just assignments and social events. So it's also a good way for you to kind of see the rest of the firm community in a way that'll also help you do your work better.

Jonah Perlin [00:35:45]:

Jean, did you have anything to add?

Jeanian Cruz [00:35:47]:

Sure. I'll add on to the the positive side of the ledger, and then I can address a little bit the negative side. That was gonna be my next question. So I'm excited I'm excited that you're willing to take that on. Sure. Well, I so I think on the on the positive side, one thing that is fantastic to see from your associates and and summer associates is somebody taking ownership of a project, which really goes along with everything that Rachel and Natasha already said. Thinking about where your piece fits into the bigger project, asking questions, and it could even just be questions to show that you you care so much, like, Hey. I I know that this deadline is really tight. There's so many resources that I could be looking at. Can you help me figure out which ones I should start with, understanding that we are under such a tight deadline. That type of question is thoughtful, and it shows that you're really trying to do the best that you can, understanding the realities of the timing and the resources. I would say another great thing is if think of your role as what can I do to make my assigning attorneys life easier? What type of work product would be easiest for them to integrate into what they're doing. So that that all goes into the whole taking ownership of something category. On the negative side, I I don't know of that there's really one bad thing that if you do your absolute know from the hiring committee, In my mind, it's more a combination of just not doing the things that we've been talking about. So showing that you're not taking ownership of your projects not being thoughtful about communications with the attorney. Not communicating well, you know, missing a deadline and not really explaining why you're missing a deadline. So I hopefully, that helps alleviate concerns. I I don't see it as one specific thing that can bomb you. It's sort of a combination just not striving for these best practices. Others?

Rachel Gurvich [00:37:43]:

Yeah. I have something sort of more on the negative side that might sort of seem like a positive, originally, which is don't over commit. And so I think we have this sense as people who are in law school or going into legal careers that we can never say no to anything, right, especially in certain practice things. Well, like, I I have to. I have to say yes that they're looking at how hard I work. But I will tell you that people will remember poorly done work product more than they will remember the fact that you said no to that extra assignment, right? Because we all have to say no at certain times, right, in our careers and our lives. I'm sitting here as a professor still working on this, and I certainly was when I was in practice. But but just saying, at this time, my plate is full. I can't take on that assignment right now and do the do it sort of the justice that it deserves, right? And so before you take on an assignment that you're stretched too thin to complete with the attention and care it deserves. I think, again, in sort of how do you say no and what context is that appropriate, those are tough questions I think is super important to discuss with people you trust at the firm, junior attorneys, other summers, the recruiting coordinator, right, or other advisers. But I think one thing you can do that seems like a positive initially, but does not set yourself up for success is over commit. And then the other thing is if you do make some mistake, right, I missed this case in the search or I didn't follow the instructions, trying to cover that up and sort of not tell anybody that you made a mistake is a super bad move. And I, this is like if you follow me on Twitter, this thing I talk about all the time, which is I think a required training for any legal setting should be all the lawyers, like spending an hour, telling the incoming attorneys about all the mistakes they've made in their career so that we, like, get that out of the way and normalize it right off the Zech. because otherwise, you don't hear them. I also from the eye. Right? I never heard about people. I respected making mistakes until I was sitting in somebody's office crying because I had made 1 and thought I was the first person to ever have made a which obviously was not the case. Right? So and, again, things that I learned almost all mistakes are fixable. Right? But you can't do it yourself. And so how you handle that, right? I think is huge and important. And although our instinct might be to run and hide, facing up to that is actually going to be a sign of, like, this person is trustworthy and straightforward and honest. And mistakes are expected, but the way they've learned and recover from that is was exemplary.

Jonah Perlin [00:39:59]:

Yeah. Natasha?

Natasha Zech [00:40:01]:

I know this is gonna sound very basic, but be nice. I I mean, Be nice. It's the same advice I give to my children that I give to the lawyers in the summer. These are going to be your future colleagues, everyone. across the board. And there are kind of 2 things I always tell summers you have to be mindful of because if you squander them, you can't get them back, and that's your time and your reputation. And if you have a reputation for having sharp elbows or being difficult to work with, it's gonna be very hard to find the work that you want or get the help that you want. So it sounds sort of very simple, but to try to be a good colleague and be thoughtful, one of my favorite interview questions actually that I like to ask candidates and that I encourage them to ask when they interview is who's your favorite colleague and why? And I like to look for patterns, right, if students are recommending a lot of the same peers. It's sort of very helpful to me when we're trying to figure out who we're gonna hire. And, similarly, when you're asking lawyers, who who are your favorite colleagues and why. It gives you a sense of what teamwork is like, and that is gonna be really important when you're trying to figure out where you want to go at the end of or even if you get an offer, you may sort of decide there may be some things that I like or maybe be looking for elsewhere. And so, again, very easy, but just be nice.

Jonah Perlin [00:41:13]:

Absolutely. Right? Be human being. Jean.

Jeanian Cruz [00:41:16]:

That's alright. And I'll just add on to that. If you are working at a firm or another organization where you think you may be working after graduation, just remember this is a long term proposition. or potentially long term proposition. So this sort of goes towards what Rachel was saying, knowing when to say no is setting appropriate boundaries so that you can produce high quality work because the attorneys will ask themselves, is this somebody I wanna work with again? and you want the answer to be yes, and that's how you build a a trusting, good working relationship. And that's really what you should be aiming towards as opposed to looking at at on a just a specific project by project basis. Think of it more as a, you know, long term series of projects and building working relationship

Jonah Perlin [00:42:02]:

Absolutely. Yeah. I I kinda call it in my head, I call it the Toledo test and the trust test, and you have to pass both of them. And by the Toledo test, it's something that that partner at my old firm used to say, which is when I'm interviewing somebody, I wanna make sure that if I was at end trial in Toledo with that person for 6 weeks, I'd be able to handle being there where that was the only other person I interacted with. And apologies to anybody from Toledo who's listening, but that's how it was pitched to me. And the trust test, and this is sort of implicit, but I wanna make it explicit, being a lawyer you're often brought in to confidences. for some people that's gonna be working for a judge and seeing what the judge is thinking and what litigants are saying. If you're at a law firm, you may be seeing confidential information of your clients And one of the things that you can never get back is if people think this person has bad judgment or does not protect those confidences, That's something that's really hard to overcome. And as Jean points out, right, it's a long career. And even if you never step foot in that same building, LawPods know other lawyers, your reputation in the community matters. And so if you can pass the sort of minimally competent trust in Toledo tests, That's my own 2¢. This has been fantastic, and I can't believe we're already in my last question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I'd love to end by getting sort of one final story and one final lesson either about your experiences a summer or a summer that you've worked with. I'll just give mine a and I'll follow Rachel's advice talking about our own mistakes. When I was a summer associate, I was asked to basically do a 50 state survey of every case I could find about a particular contract question because the partner said there is a case out there that says this, and I need to find it. I just don't know where it is. Newsflash. If a partner says that, it may be because there actually is no case. That's why they're giving it to the summer associate. And I probably skimmed a thousand cases. Couldn't find anything or anything adjacent to it. and I got a call from the library. Again, go to the library, follow Natasha's advice, and they said, you've racked up a pretty large research bill reading these 1000 cases This is not law school anymore. And I was like, oh my god. I'm never gonna have a job again. They're gonna fire me as a summer associate. They're never gonna hire me back. and both the partner and the library and then said, no. No. You were doing your job. Right? Next time, ask us at case 500 if you really need to go to case 1000, but you were doing your job. This was a massive 10 tens of $1,000,000 case, it was worth looking. And now that I know it doesn't exist, I can make the argument from scratch. And so the lawyer actually gained something for me having done the research, and the answer was, I got nothing for you. And that was kind of empowering for me. So one final story and one final lesson. Who wants to go first?

Natasha Zech [00:44:37]:

Yeah. Natasha's raising your hand. Love it. Go for it. So I I will tell you. I'm not gonna tell one story. It's a bit of a collection It's on on the more serious topic, but I think it's an important one. I think mental health is something that the pandemic has forced to the front. of conversations that we in this industry have needed to have for a long time. And part of my role at the firm, in addition to recruiting and diversity and inclusion efforts is to counsel associates and and that sort of dovetails with the professional development efforts. And it's really important to raise your hand if you need assistance and to take care of yourself. So and that is particularly difficult for summer. You're like, I don't know anyone. I had been here for 3 months. I should just power through it. Please don't do that. So I will say having now done this for 11 summers, I am so proud of the summers who raise their hand when they need assistance, especially the pandemic. There are all sorts of unseen things that are now on your plate to take care of yourself and potentially other people. So my my, I guess, find a lesson slash advice It's to raise your hand if you need help because this is the time firms are really focused on it and really wanna help you put your best foot forward. And so I would strongly encourage people to do that because we are here to help.

Jonah Perlin [00:45:46]:

Sorry. It's a less less funny story, but I think an important one. Absolutely. I think it's essential, and I'm so glad that I think firms are thinking about this more, at least more systematically, and I hope other organizations are as well. Gee?

Jeanian Cruz [00:46:00]:

I'll add on to that. Last summer, I worked with a summer associate who did a great job on a project for me, who is also very open about the fact that he had young children and his wife worked during the nights. And this was last summer when I think no day cares were open and nannies were barely available. So He had a lot of childcare duties during the day. His being willing to be open with me about that helped our working relationships so much because I could understand why he only had certain windows that he could talk it. Normally, a summer associate is in the office. They're available all the time. When do you wanna meet? I'm always free. Just let me know. He had certain windows where he was available, and I really appreciated that he was upfront with me about that. So We do understand that this is not a normal summer, and as long as everybody tries their best, I think we'll be very understanding about just everybody's in a different life position, and work over Zoom is hard for everyone. So I I know there's a lot of, probably, anxiety about remote programs this summer, but, hopefully, that'll alleviate some concerns.

Jonah Perlin [00:47:12]:

Absolutely. Rachel?

Rachel Gurvich [00:47:15]:

I actually think this is such an important theme. And so I'd like to add on to that as well, which is one thing that I I have experienced myself a little bit and from a lot of coworkers and peers at a variety of practice settings is organizations are not always set up to proactively look out for you, right? Just because of the size or other limitations during they can't sort of look into you, look into your home, and see what's going on. And so some of that burden is on you sort of take that first step to ask for what you need. But my experience is that even the organizations that people perceive as being so demanding once you take that first step, are really willing to work with you and accommodate. And if they're not, that also tells you an important piece of information about whether that's fit for you in the long term, right? So, so I think taking care of yourself is such an important sort of lesson for how to be in this profession sustainably long term and how to sort give yourself what you are owed and make sure you get that that I just I wanna echo that and say, ask for what you need. And and, again, sort of the response to that, I think, will be really telling about the organization that you're working with and and whether that's a long term thing for you too.

Jonah Perlin [00:48:31]:

Thank you again to Natasha Rachel and Jean for taking their time and for offering such incredible advice. Thanks also to you for listening to the first episode of how I lawyer panel opinion. If you learned something for this episode, I hope you'll consider subscribing to the podcast at howi lawyer.com. or wherever you get your podcasts. If you have feedback or ideas, I can always be reached at howilawyer@gmail.com or at Jonah Perlin on Twitter. I'll be back later this week with a regularly scheduled episode. But for now, thanks again to our panelists. Thanks to you for listening, and have a great week.